Welcome to Voices from the Footnotes. In this podcast听we will explore some of the hidden histories at the 平特五不中 Library and Archives, looking at places, people, and artifacts. The library and archival collections are rich and fascinating, but this series flows from the silences and absences that are also present. Join us as we explore the voices and stories from the Footnotes.
Did you know that 平特五不中 also owns some land in Mont St. Hilaire? It鈥檚 called the Gault Nature Reserve. This episode will focus on the beautiful land and waters of the Gault Reserve, what we know about its history based on 平特五不中鈥檚 archives, and how it is used today especially by 平特五不中鈥檚 First Peoples' House.
Explore Additional Content
The Gault Nature Reserve As Property: Seigneurie to Estate
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The Gault Estate; Prioritizing Conservation and Building a Nature Centre
Clockwise from top Left: Paige Isaac and Allan Vicaire, Tanya Lalonde speaking at graduation ceremony, Allan Vicaire speaking at graduation ceremony, Paige Isaac speaking at graduate ceremony, Bannock from Soup and Bannock Wednesdays at First Peoples' House, TOPONA Board game (The Original Peoples of North America). Photos used by permission of First Peoples' House and Podcast guests.
Credits
Host & Producer: Sheetal Lodhia
Production and technical assistance: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Transcription: Labiba Faiza
Research Assistance: Michelle McLeod, Adria Seccareccia
Guests:
Adria Seccareccia
Paige Isaac
Allan Vicaire
Tanya Lalonde
Music:
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org
Transitions: , by edtijo, CC0 1.0
End credits: Happy-music by monkeyman535, Sourced from Freesound.org.
00:03 Sheetal: Welcome to Voices from the Footnotes, a podcast series presented by the 平特五不中 Libraries鈥� ROAAr team. Each episode we will explore some of the hidden histories at 平特五不中, looking at places, people and artifacts. The library collections are rich and interesting, but this series flows from the silences also present. It is our desire to gather stories and share them. It is our goal is to highlight voices who have often been overlooked in histories and in archives. I am today鈥檚 host, Sheetal Lodhia.
[00:40] Before we begin today鈥檚 episode, we acknowledge that 平特五不中 is situated on the traditional territory of the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst Nations. We recognize and respect the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka as the traditional custodians of the lands and waters on which we meet today.
01:01 Sheetal: 平特五不中鈥檚 campus is well-known to Montrealers and to many Canadians. It鈥檚 located primarily in downtown Montreal, beginning at Sherbrooke Street and heading north all the way up to Pine Avenue at the foot of Mont Royal. There is an additional campus, the MacDonald, or 鈥渕ac campus鈥� as it is known by 平特五不中ians, which is located west of the downtown campus on several acres of land. But did you know that 平特五不中 also owns some land in Mont St. Hilaire? it鈥檚 called the Gault Nature Reserve.
[01:35] Today鈥檚 episode will focus on the Gault Nature Reserve, what we know about its history based on 平特五不中鈥檚 archives, and how it is used today, especially by 平特五不中鈥檚 First Peoples鈥� House.
01:50 Paige: I mean, if you've ever been there and if you've seen the lake up in the mountain, like it's just, I don't know, like it's almost like a perfect circle, with the steep mountains around it, like it's a gorgeous place. So you can tell, I think, you can tell that there, you know, Indigenous peoples have been there. You can tell a-and feel that it was a sacred place.
02:17 Allan: Uh [laughs]but there was also a significant, also cultural aspect where I think we had opportunity just for Indigenous people to be on the land, um, to take hikes, to walk, and just to be in one with nature that we wouldn't receive that if we were, you know, downtown campus.
02:42 Sheetal: The Gault Reserve on Mont St. Hilaire has a pretty long and storied history. And the thing is, we don鈥檛 know the whole history. What we do know, we have pieced together through archives at 平特五不中 and through stories where we can. We know that the land was parcelled out by the French crown, and then sold to various owners over the years. We also know that 平特五不中鈥檚 ownership comes quite late in the story, and through a donation.
[03:10] I also want to mention that, as with many research endeavours, new information can often come to light as we are in the midst of creating our publication. That is true in this case. When we began this radio documentary project, and unbeknownst to us, 平特五不中 had begun to create a relationship with the Abenaki Community, who are the original stewards of this land. We don鈥檛 yet know all the history of the reserve, as much of it is still sacred knowledge among the Abenaki. You鈥檒l hear more about 平特五不中鈥檚 developing relationship later in the piece.
[03:42] First, let鈥檚 get to some of the history we do know. And for that, we turn to Adria
03:49 Adria: So my name is Adria Seccareccia. I am, uh, archivist and liaison librarian at, uh, Rare Books and Special Collections at 平特五不中 library. And yeah, I mean, I work with, um, processing collections, archival collections, but also reference, uh, some, uh, teaching as well about, you know, archival literacy, and, uh, helping with research requests like this one [laughs].
[04:16] But the first timeline is really, became a-a timeline of property ownership, like I mentioned. Um, and it, it only starts in 1694 because, um, the records, or the narrative, the records, um, are kind of, um, telling our, you know, a history of, uh, when colonialists take this land and make it their property. And obviously, we know this land was around way longer [laughs] than that.
[04:44] Um, so yeah, so it begins in 1694, uh, when, um, the land is, um, given to, uh, Jean-Baptiste Hertel, um, as鈥攁nd he becomes the first seigneur, um, of this, um, seigneurie de Rouville they called it. Um, the lot of land that ends up, um, being donated to 平特五不中 is really only a small portion of this large seigneurie. Um, from 1694 to, um, 1844, the seigneurie is intact in a sense and remains, um, within the family, the Hertel family, through inheritance until it鈥檚 sold in 1844 to Thomas Edmund Campbell.
05:31 Sheetal: The timeline is fairly detailed, so alongside this podcast, we have online resources where you can see a visual timeline and more granular details of the history of Gault, including pictures. Look for the link in the show notes. You might also be wondering: what is the seigneurie system?
05:50 Adria: It's, it's based off of, um, like the French feudal system. But there's, um, okay, so it, it was adopted in 1627 in, in New France, and it's abolished in I think 1854. What essentially it is, is that, uh, influential colonists were given portions of land, or seigneuries, uh, in order to kind of encourage settlement.
06:20 Sheetal: Remember that France in the 1600s was a monarchy, and so the first settlers were responsible to the crown. In fact, it is assumed that all the 鈥渄iscovered鈥� land is owned by the crown, with an officer acting in the king鈥檚 place in New France through a crown company. The first crown company was originally run by Cardinal Richelieu. There was also a fee structure in this seigneurie system. Seigneurs are essentially Lords.
06:48 Adria: And these colonists became seigneurs and they either produced on the land themselves or they also, um, gave land to tenants, or assigned, had tenants on this land who would pay the seigneur rent to either produce on the land or to also extract resources like lumber or, um, hunting, things like this.
07:13 Sheetal: So, now getting back to the timeline. In 1844 is when we see a shift from francophone ownership to anglophone ownership, and that鈥檚 through marriage. The Campbells sell off portions of land and Admiral Gault purchases some of it, which would later be donated to 平特五不中.
07:30 Adria: And then, you know, the big, kind of like, milestone i-in, for the history of 平特五不中 is when Admiral Gault, uh, receives, um, or purchases part of Lot 306 in 1913, but also in 1913, he also purchases Lot, part, a portion of Lots 305 and 306 from, uh, Robert Peel William Campbell who was, um, the son of the, the first Thomas Campbell who got the property in 1844, or the, I should say the seigneurie rights in 1844.
[08:04] And so, from that point, um, you know, we know the story is that he then, uh, Admiral Gault then, donates this land to 平特五不中 in 18, uh, sorry, 1958, after he after, um, after he passes away. Um, but 平特五不中 also kind of acquired, um, other portions of this land, or the, or the surrounding area, uh, through another donation in 1959, um, from also I think another relative of the Campbells, but it seems like they also purchased portions.
08:40 Sheetal: As is typical with land ownership throughout history, sometimes the rights are murky and contested. In fact, the archives show that some parts of Mont St. Hilaire may not have even been Admiral Gault鈥檚 to give.
[08:53] So, how has this land been used? Well, among other things, there were mines and claims to mining rights. There is a lake, Lac Hertel, which used to provide the surrounding municipality of Beloeil with water. 平特五不中 took part in gravel mining and in building many of the road infrastructures leading to and from these resources. In fact, the surrounding community did not like the noise and disturbances caused by the mining in the early 1960s.
[09:23] Resource extraction may have actually run rampant in the area if not for the fact that in 1978 鈥� roughly 20 years after 平特五不中 owns a portion 鈥� Mont St. Hilaire was declared Canada鈥檚 first Biosphere by UNESCO. That declaration entitled the mountain to protection against resource extraction. In the decade leading up the UNESCO declaration, the director of the Gault Nature Reserve also began putting policies in place to ensure that the land would be protected.
09:56 Adria: So, in 1963 and 1964, these kinds of conversations or questions, uh, lead to actually dividing the estate into three sections. Um, so there's the biological reserve, the recreational area, and, uh, a forest management area. But the need to kind of prioritize the conversation around, um, around preservation, um, really kind of gets more defined in 1969 with Alice Johansson,
[10:31] who sets up, um, kind of a committee to plan, to create a nature center, which is then ju- or even further justified by a study, um, done by the National Audubon Society in 1970. So, the center actually, because of, um, Alice Johansen鈥檚 recommendations, but also I think, you know, the National Audubon Society's recommendations, the center is established in 1972, um, and in 1977,
[11:01] they kind of do this review of the master plan for the Gault estate and they re-identify these, these three zones, let's call them. So, the first becomes the Nature Center sector. Uh, then there's also [clears throat] the Research and Preservation sector and, um, the Development, uh, and Access, uh, sector. So, you know, the Nature Center was really meant to allow for the use of public trails,
[11:31] so that people could, you know, walk or, or um, interact with nature without having, with having as least harm as possible to the ecosystem. Um, and then the Research and Preservation sector is really kind of intended to be, uh, left, you know, 鈥渦ntouched鈥� [laughs] as much as possible, um, and used for academic staff and students, really for all kinds of different research purposes.
11:59 Sheetal: And that鈥檚 how the Gault Nature Reserve is largely known today, as an environmental research centre and nature conservation area. The water disputes among 平特五不中 and Beloeil was an example of 平特五不中鈥檚 push for preservation rather than resource extraction. We also look to the bequest of Admiral Gault, which outlines his interest in land stewardship. In the show notes, you will see a photo of a plaque in Gault鈥檚 memory from September 29, 1964, which outlines his wish for the reserve.
[12:29] Gault himself was a businessman, involved in textiles and in the cotton industry. He financed a regiment for WWI called the Princess Patricia鈥檚 Canadian Light Infantry.
12:50 Sheetal: As I mentioned at the beginning, we do not know some of Mont St. Hilaire鈥檚 indigenous history. Indeed, the principle of absence has been one of the guiding forces of these podcasts: whose voices are we missing?
13:14 Sheetal: Where connections to the land or to the Abenaki community has occurred, it has come through individual efforts, and through the First Peoples鈥� House. We spoke with Paige Isaac, former student and former director of First Peoples鈥� House, about what it鈥檚 like up there on the mountain.
13:31 Paige: I mean, if you've ever been there and if you've seen the lake up in the mountain like it's just, I don't know, like it's almost like a perfect circle, with the steep mountains around it, like it's a gorgeous place. So you can tell, I think, you can tell that there, you know, Indigenous peoples have been there. You can tell a-and feel that it was a sacred place. But it was only after a friend of mine, um,
[14:01] asked if I knew anything about it, like asked if I knew if it was a ceremonial place for Indigenous peoples, and you know, and I had to admit, like I didn't really know the history, you know. And as any place in, in North America, you know it's, it's a sacred place for Indigenous peoples, but you don't often get, have access to those stories, um, or that history.
[14:26] And so, yeah, I remember, you know, it was something that she would remind me every time she saw me, like 鈥渉ave you found anything out yet鈥�? And, you know, 鈥渨e need to do something鈥�, you know, 鈥渨e need to bring ceremony to the place,鈥� you know, to that space and make, you know. Um, so there was always this intrigue that I had but I didn't, you know, quite get to doing the research or speaking with, with Indigenous communities around that area to find anything out. Yeah, so it's still like a mystery to me, yeah.
14:58 Sheetal: Were you, were you glad that 平特五不中 sort of had this, you know, a place that, that most 平特五不中ians weren't really using?
15:07 Paige: Yeah, I mean I thought it was, um, yeah, I mean, you know, I thought it was pretty cool that there was, there was this connection, for sure. I actually went there as a student in one of my ecology classes. We went and took a walk around there and, um, yeah. Yeah, no, I mean I, I was happy to have that connection there when I was a, a student and an employee to just kind of, yeah, like maybe reclaim our, con- connection to that
[15:37] land even though, you know, a lot of our, a lot of the Indigenous students who went to 平特五不中 were from all over the place, right? So they might not have been aware of, of the history there, um, you know. But I think just being there, you can feel it, right? And there's like a change of energy when you, when you're out in natural spaces and so, you know, I think we, even though we might not be connected to the history, that we can kind of feel and be changed by just being there and taking in the beauty and breathing the air [laughs]. Yeah.
16:07 Sheetal: Paige is not the only one who described having a connection to this land. Tanya Lalonde, former and current student of 平特五不中 and former Family Care Officer at SEDE, also talks about the having a connection to this land and how that sparked the idea of an annual Indigenous student and staff retreat.
16:26 Tanya: I grew up in the country, so I grew up on a farm in Alberta and then I lived on an acreage in Alberta as well, so I鈥檝e always been a country person. I didn鈥檛 live in a city until I was 15 years old, um, that was my first time living in a city, taking a bus, going to a city school, all that kind of stuff, so it鈥檚 like, I鈥檓 definitely a country kid, so I always find it extremely calming and, like,
[16:56] spiritual to be in a place where there鈥檚 a lot of nature. And so I think that that connection to the land is very integral to, um, Indigenous culture and Indigenous people, and I think that, you know, I鈥檓 not the only one that feels that way. Um, yeah, like just being out there and hiking, uh, you know, usually we, we went in winter, so, uh, we do like big snow hikes and,
[17:27] uh, it鈥檚 just, in the middle of a busy, stressful academic year, it was just such a nice break to look forward to, and I really liked that. I also really like, you know, eating communal meals together and talking and, um, you know, at night we would have like a fire outside, and we just hang out and joke around, and we鈥檇 have crafts out so that people could do like a beading project,
[17:58] or, I would always bring homework because it was kind of the, like a kid-free time for me to get some work done. Um so, there鈥檚 people, you know, working on computers in the corner, people doing crafting, people out by the fire, like it was just a very nice, communal, like sense of community, but with no pressure, like, um, it wasn鈥檛 super structured, so there wasn鈥檛 like 鈥渙kay at three you have to do this,
at five, you do this.鈥� It was like very much, very organic in terms of how we, you know, structured the. the weekend, so I, I really like that too.
18:37 Sheetal: I asked Paige what it took to get the retreat going.
18:41 Paige: Yeah, so, you know, First Peoples鈥� House was, you know, a service there to support Indigenous students and so, you know, we had a community of Indigenous students at the House, and there was also another program and I think it was a new program, uh, Indigenous Access 平特五不中, and so they were also offering more support for Indigenous social work and nursing students. And so they, there was a cohort of Indigenous social work students and Tanya LaLonde was one of them.
[19:10] Um, and so you know, I was really, they were part of our, of our, of our community and it was one year, It was like an especially rough year I think, you know. Several of these students had something major going on in their life, whether, you know, I think it was like losing family members, there was, I remember there was, you know, suicide in the, in the family and like, a lot of rough things were happening that were affecting their well-being, um, and affecting their studies,
[19:40] and I think it was a, you know, I think it was Tanya who, who brought up the idea to one of their, the people running Indigenous Access 平特五不中 that a retreat could be a good idea. And, yeah, I think, you know, we were like 鈥測eah, that sounds like a really great idea, how do we make this happen and, and what does this look like?鈥� And, so, it鈥搕hat began a collaboration. So, it was a First Peoples鈥� House [and] Indigenous Access 平特五不中 collaboration, open to all Indigenous students.
[20:11] And, you know, uh, I think we identified the Gault Nature Reserve pretty early on, like I don't, you know, I think just being part of 平特五不中, it was far enough out of the city, it was a natural, beautiful location, there was somewhere to stay. Um, you know, it all just kind of, sounded really good and, and we thought, why not? Let's, let's try this out and, you know, I would, I would, um, ask the students,
[20:41] like get a group of students who are interested in coming, we would meet beforehand and collaborate on the activities, like, you know, um, so we would gather ideas from the students and get a sense of what they wanted to do and try to make it a good community, community event and, you know, yeah that's it. It was kind of like a camping, camping weekend and something to, build community, right?
[21:09] So people, th-the students kind of actually, I think a big thing that we learned was that for them, just getting to know each other and building community within each other was really supportive. So it wasn't just, just getting away, it was really鈥揑 think that helped, you know [laughs]. Get away from the city, get away from distractions, um, and get to know one another on a different level, um, I think that really helped build their friendships even like moving forward.
21:36 Sheetal: Allan Vicaire became director of First Peoples鈥� House after Paige. He was also the Indigenous Education Officer at SEDE, and we spoke with him about his experiences there too.
21:46 Allan: Well, I was very lucky when I was at SEDE. I actually participated in the retreat, um, I would say several times. I don't know, maybe two or three times. So I had an opportunity to go out. I didn't stay the night there. Um, so I always did day trips. Uh, it wasn't until I took th-the, you know, the head of the First鈥� director of the First Peoples鈥� House. Then, I was like okay, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta bunk it with the students. Uh, so I had a little bit of luxury beforehand. Not to say I actually, I actually did enjoy, um, uh, bunking it with the students 'cause we actually had a lot of fun and, and just being me, we put on music, we did face mask.
[22:17] Uh, uh, [laughs] but there was also a significant, also cultural aspect where I think we had opportunity just for Indigenous people to be on the land, um, to take hikes, to walk, and just to be in one with nature that we wouldn't receive, that if we were, you know, downtown campus. So it was something where, it was just, it was, it was something that was really special, you know, for us and for the students. So we incorporated a mix of variety. Some was cul- some were cultural,
[22:47] but then some were just like, just bonding experiences, whether it was games, or watching a movie. But there were opportunities for drumming, for sharing circles, um, for craft, so we invited like Ben Jibo to come in and do some crafts. Uh, we did, on our spare time, beading, so we were looking at everyone's beading projects. I remember Ben Jibo, uh, he, he, he's a PhD student who, I, I believe just is going to be wrapping up his studies soon in the School of Social Work.
[23:17] And, uh, he's also part of Indigenous Access 平特五不中, so he was really part of like bringing the beading in and that was something that was really great, to sit around, to talk. Some of us, some students will come and bead, but the others would just be on the couch, uh, reading, doing some of their, their, their, their schoolwork or anything that they had to do, or papers, and it was just a really relaxing time.
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23:38 Paige: We, we did different things. We did a lot of, like, collages and we would bring photos and talk about, you know, and share, uh, like what it meant to us, so you know. So, a lot of thinking about family and relationships and where we come from and, um, we, you know one of our, one of my colleagues Kakwiranoron was a massage therapist, like before, [laughs] before coming to 平特五不中 and so he would do, sometimes he would like actually
[24:08] do massages on people and then he would do workshops on just like self-massage techniques. We would go hiking, we would make all of the meals together, we would watch movies, play games, um, yeah, there was this [laughs] one game, it was left at the First Peoples鈥� House when I first got there. It was, it was a board game called TOPONA [laughs] st-stands for The Original People of North America.
[24:39] And it's a trivia game, and so we would play [audio lags] this trivia game about Indigenous Peoples of North America and it became a tradition, like we would play it every year to see who won TOPONA [laughs].
24:51 Sheetal: Describe the, the bunking. What did it look like? What is it, what was it like?
24:56 Allan: Yeah, so you would go in, so there was these two鈥� so we would, uh, book these kind of two lodges that kind of, they didn't connect but they were beside each other. And then, uh, for each room there were four bunk beds, and we just divided it up, so, you know. But what happened i- when I took, you know, when I took the lead on this was I think we divided up by like grad students in one area and undergrads in the other, because I think the undergrads had more of a lively night, uh, being up,
[25:26] playing games, uh, you know, whether it was like, you know, Dungeons and Dragons at like one or two a.m. Um, and then, on our side we just went to bed early 'cause we were just old farts [laughs]. It was definitely the more, you know, y-you could definitely feel the vibe. So that's how, that's how it was.
25:46 Sheetal: What about meals? How did you, what did you do for meals?
25:49 Allan: Meals were very communal, so that was one of the, the most I think important part of, in that experience, like I think as Indigenous peoples, the community aspect. It wasn't just like, you know, everyone's鈥� yeah, some people would do, would take their own individual, like, snacks. But when it came to the meals, people were coming together, they were cutting, they were chopping, 鈥渨hat do you need?鈥� And then by the time we were done eating, then it was the cleaning, um, and everyone took their share. So, and that was something that was really important for all of us.
[26:18] And I think it was something that was well understood, like I didn't, I didn't, you know, have to say anything, or none of us, it鈥檚 just everyone came together and just did what they had to do.
26:27 Sheetal: And how was it funded?
26:29 Allan: So first, it was funded by an Eberts fund, so we ac- First Peoples House has an endowed kind of, like, fund where they fund their activities, so they have access to that. Um, second, it was only for Indigenous students, so those who use this, th-th-the space. Um, um, and how it was advertised was through our Listserv, and when students self-identify as being Indigenous through the application process, then we get our list and that's the information that we disseminate.
[26:58] And the reason why it's continued [indistinct], so, you know, it's still continued, you know, is because of the fact鈥搊f the success. People really enjoyed going out there, people loved it, and people who did it the year before were going to go again the year, you know, coming and then the year after, until they graduated, right? So I think that was really the key 'cause it was just like, people knew that they were going to have a good time. They, you know, we did a lot of fun things.
[27:24] Um, you know, so it's funny 'cause you have the, the two lodges, but then in the back you have this additional space so, so it was kind of like, I'm sure in the summer i-i-it would be easier to, to, to move as opposed to like minus 20 weather, but you could open the back and then you can go into this other space which we, we鈥檇 use for, I remember, you know, one year, uh, Jessica Barudin did, uh, uh, yoga, so we did yoga, you know. And I remember one year that it was me and a few students, that we just started to do some work outs, so we were just doing some like pushups and like some [indistinct],
[27:54] you know, we're getting the, o-o-our blood going and then, and then, I know there were, last year there were students who were really into games and they ended up making that a game space, where they were up till 3:00 a.m., um, uh, playing games. But what鈥檚 important to note too, is that it, that, this, that retreat was also, there was no alcohol involved, right? So that's something that鈥檚 important. But we made it so, where it was a respectful space where this is鈥搕here's no alcohol allowed in this space. So that we kept it really, we kept that intentionally dry, so.
[28:25] I was gonna say something, And then the food that, you know, unfortunately we didn't have, we didn't do traditional food, like, that we would normally do at the House. So at the House sometimes will have traditional feasts where we had moose and salmon. I think it was just more for logistics of, of, of, of, just like, you know, there was always a pasta night, there was, you know, uh, you know, maybe like a big salad. I鈥檓 trying to think [mumbles] lasagna, vegetarian lasagna, we had, you know what I mean? So we, we made it very easy because it was a jam packed, uh, weekend
[28:56] and we wanted to make it the easiest, um, kind of food. And like, at lunch it was kind of like, put all the stuff out for sandwiches, we made like a big like, you know, chickpea salad, and then, you know, and then people can eat whatever they want to eat, yeah.
29:11 Sheetal: I spoke with Tanya, Paige and Allan about land ownership and a little about the settler timeline of the reserve. One principle that they all made clear was that the concept of ownership of land 鈥� the western concept as we know it today 鈥� is not one shared by Indigenous people.
29:28 Paige: Well that鈥檚 it, right? Like we don鈥檛 own the land, but I think, you know, we would have used the land in different ways and felt connected to the land and known, you know, have known the land and used it for, you know, survival and, and what not. Um, so yeah, for sure it was [clears throat] you know, even though I was happy to have that connection through 平特五不中,
[29:58] it鈥檚 always complicated, right? Because I think I had conversations with other friends, with some, some of my friends who were Abenaki, who, you know, didn鈥檛 feel that connection to the place and, and were actually excluded and had to pay to get in there and, you know, so that definitely, um, leaves a bitter taste in your mouth and, you know. I think for a lot of Indigenous Peoples, like land is so important, right? Land, and language, and culture, and so,
[30:28] if you鈥檙e not, you know, if you鈥檙e excluded from that, for sure, it鈥檚 not, uh, it鈥檚 not a good feeling, right? And so [gulps] I, I do remember also mentioning that, I think I wrote that, you know, I think I wrote to the Gault, just, you know, informing them that, you know, this is what community is saying and, and you know, what can we open up this conversation, what can we do to enhance people鈥檚 connection to, to that place that is likely very sacred and has a historical significance?
31:02 Allan: [laughs] Where do I begin, right? Uh, [laughs] it's just one of those things where I think w-w-we see, you know, not we, but I think the Western view is land as, as property, as buying, as ownership, um, monetizing the resources, uh, you know? A-A-And in some sense, like as Indigenous people, like, we use the land as resources, but we used it for what we needed, right? It wasn't this like mass production of like, a-a-a kind of capitalism, you know, a-a-and, and for those that, that run,
[31:34] you know, those types of operations gain th-the money a-and the resources as opposed to the rest of the population. You know, for us it was just we need it for ourselves and for the community that we were in, to sustain ourselves through the seasons and hardships of, of winter and summer, right? So it was our shelter, our food, and, and also how maybe some Nations even moved from different spots when the seasons changed, right? So for me, I think, there was that connection. I think there was always some sort of,
[32:04] I wouldn鈥檛 say the term ownership, but an understanding back in the day of territories. I, I could say that where there was like, 鈥渉ere鈥檚 Miq鈥橫ah territory, here's the [name, indistinct]鈥�, a-a-a-and some sort of, kind of, you know, 鈥渂orders鈥� o-o-of where territories lie 鈥榗ause sometimes different Nations were enemies, right? Um, but that would be, that would be it, there was nothing that was really drawn.
[32:26] You know, as Indigenous people, like nothing is ours, I think in relation to the land, i-i-it's kind of a really kind of holistic approach. It's like we鈥檙e there as the caretakers and the land also care takes us, you know, of our needs. You know, for many of us, who, not all of us, but for some of us who grew up on the land, you know, wherever their Nations were from, it kind of resonated them t-to be, uh, in one with nature.
[32:51] And it was always refreshing after, when we were coming back from the retreat, you know, to have had that experience, not just togetherness, as like a community, but also to be outdoors and to walk around. We would build a fire in the evening, um, 鈥榗ause there was a fire pit, uh, we would take, you know, uhh, twice I took a walk up, all the way up to one of the top of the mountains during winter with some students, others would take hikes, there were some students who, who snowshoed. So, it was just an opportunity for us just to, to really
[33:21] feel connected and feel that, I don't want to say the term ownership, but at least I think the word I would use is the connection t-to the land that we normally don't have downtown.
33:33 Sheetal: Paige and I discussed Parks Canada and how Indigenous people now have free access to our parks.
33:39 Paige: I think similar to, um, you know, I think Parks Canada has done, done work on that to improve access for Indigenous Peoples and on a lot of the areas under their, uh, mandate, you know. And so I think, yeah, I think that should be similar to everywhere, [laughs] you know [Sheetal interjects: Yeah]. Whether it's like a provincial park or a local park, or, you know, that's something that I think, um, at least, you know, at the very least, that that could be done.
34:08 Sheetal: Yeah, I agree.
[34:09] Paige is clearly forward thinking, and also partly responsible for 平特五不中鈥檚 beginning of a relationship with the Abenaki. When she was head of First People鈥檚 House, she began discussions with the Gault Reserve about waiving fees for Indigenous people. Well, as of June 14th, 2021, and as part of its larger recognition and reconciliation mandate, 平特五不中 has created a partnership with the Grande Conseil de la Nation Waban-Aki, welcoming its Nation鈥檚 members to the reserve to practice cultural activities free of charge.
35:00 Sheetal: As always, look to our show notes for additional material, such as timelines, photos, links to archival material, and more. Many thanks to our guests Paige Isaac, Allan Vicaire and Tanya Lalonde, and to our dedicated researchers Adria Secaraccia and Michelle MacLeod. We also thank former Director of the Gault Nature Reserve, Martin Lechowicz (letch-o-vitz), for all his assistance. Thank you to Professor Nathalie Cooke, Director of this project at 平特五不中 Library鈥檚 ROAAr team, and to Jacquelyn Sundberg, Associate Producer.
[35:32] Our title song called Happy Sandbox was composed by Mativve and sourced from freesound.org. All composers are listed in our show notes. I鈥檓 Sheetal Lodhia, producer for this episode. Thanks for listening!
This is the first in a series where we get to know the people at ROAAr. The staff, archivists, librarians and students who sit behind the desk 鈥� or, in the case of the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020-21, behind the screens.鈥疭o let us introduce Adria Seccareccia, archivist/librarian with ROAAr.
Since joining the 平特五不中 Library in 2020, Adria has worked on a number of projects, including a new web archiving project: 平特五不中 Responses to Anti-Black Racism.
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BSN logo courtesy of BSN 平特五不中 ().
For our first episode, The Gault Nature Reserve, Adria put together two timelines tracing the history of the Gault Estate as documented in the 平特五不中 Archives. Explore her work听in the episode 1 shownotes above.
Credits
Host & Producer: Sheetal Lodhia
Production and technical assistance: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Guest:
Adria Seccareccia
Music:
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org
End credits: Happy-music by monkeyman535, Sourced from Freesound.org
From human rights to library science, Chris Lyons is a man of many passions. In this episode, the head librarian at Rare Books and Special Collections听talks about his unusual career trajectory, the books he read as a kid, his first encounter with library fines, and the perks of befriending librarians.
This is the second in our series where we get to know the people鈥痑t ROAAr. The staff, archivists, librarians and students who sit behind the desk 鈥� or, in the case of the pandemic, behind the screens.
Chris Lyons hiking on a volcano in northern Sumatra, Indonesia. This was part of an overland trip across Russia and Asia in 1991 before he began working with Canadian International Development Agency
Credits
Host & Producer: Sheetal Lodhia
Production and technical assistance: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Guest:
Christopher Lyons
Music:
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org
End credits: Happy-music by monkeyman535, Sourced from Freesound.org.
From bookworm to archivist, meet Lori Podolsky, records manager at 平特五不中 Library听and Archives.
In this short episode, Lori tells us why her neighbours were not too fond of her childhood reading habits, how she used archives for the first time while researching a measles epidemic and recalls the series of events that led her to study archival science.
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Lori with a favourite book, Born Free. Lori tended to read herself to sleep, I think this action shot on the right captures her just at the magic moment between story and sleep.
Credits
Host & Producer: Sheetal Lodhia
Production and technical assistance: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Guest:
Lori Podolsky
Music:
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org
End credits: Happy-music by monkeyman535, Sourced from Freesound.org.
Episode 5 - Finding Where We Belong; Indigenous Perspectives at 平特五不中
In this episode, current and former staff of 平特五不中鈥檚 First Peoples鈥� House discuss the various hurdles faced by Indigenous students in higher education. Interviewees also share how staff and tailored programming听provide much-needed support to students and help them build community, foster a sense of belonging, and achieve academic success. For today鈥檚 episode, we issue a trigger warning in that we discuss some sensitive issues pertaining to colonialism, mental health, and suicide.
Resources
Get connected with First Peoples' House at 平特五不中 : /fph/
Today鈥檚 episode touched on issues of suicide and mental health. If you or someone you know is struggling, reach out:
鈥� 24/7 crisis line and counselling service available to all 平特五不中 students free of charge. Call 1-844-451-9700 (phone)
Talk to your Faculty Advisor about a leave of absence. This is an option, and you can return to your studies at a later date.
Credits
Host & Producer: Sheetal Lodhia
Production and technical assistance: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Transcription: Labiba Faiza
Guests:
Paige Isaac
Allan Vicaire
Tanya Lalonde
Music
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org
Sombre Piano, By LuckyLittleRaven, , sourced from Freesound.org
End credits: Happy-music by monkeyman535, Sourced from Freesound.org.
Full Transcript
0:03 Sheetal:听Welcome to听Voices from the Footnotes, a podcast series presented by the 平特五不中 Libraries鈥櫶齊OAAr听team. Each episode,听we will explore some of the hidden histories at 平特五不中, looking at places, people听and artifacts. The library collections are rich and听interesting,听but this series flows from the silences also present. It is听our desire to gather stories and share them.听It is our听goal is to highlight voices who have often been overlooked in histories and听in听archives. I am today鈥檚 host, Sheetal听Lodhia.听听
0:40听Sheetal:听Before听we begin today鈥檚 episode, we acknowledge that 平特五不中 is situated on the traditional territory of the听Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka, a place听which听has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst nations.听We鈥痳ecognize鈥痑nd听respect鈥痶he听Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka听as the traditional custodians of the lands and waters on which we meet today.听听
听01:01听Sheetal:听In today鈥檚 episode,听we hear from former students and former staff of the听First听Peoples鈥櫶鼿ouse at 平特五不中.听We focus on some of the barriers for Indigenous participation in higher education,听and we celebrate Indigenous excellence. That excellence has had the opportunity to flourish and听to听thrive because of programs and practises put听into place by Indigenous students and staff to support one another. For today鈥檚 episode,听we issue a trigger听warning听in that we discuss some sensitive issues pertaining to colonialism, mental health and suicide.听
01:38听Tanya:听[Laughs]听Okay, uh, my name is Tanya Lalonde and I currently work as the program coordinator for the Indigenous program听[mouth clicks],听uh, with the Undergraduate Medical Education Faculty, in the Faculty of Medicine, at the University of Ottawa [laughs]. There's a lot of words in this, uh, title听[another speaker laughs]. I'm never sure which order to put them in, um, and I've just been working there since December.听
02:08听Paige:听My name is Paige Isaac. I am听Miq鈥檓ah听from听Listuguj, Qu茅bec. I used to work at 平特五不中 as the associate director of First Peoples鈥櫶鼿ouse听and I now work for my community in听Listuguj, as the Tourism Development Officer.听
02:29听Allan:听So听my name is Allan听Vicaire听and I'm听Miq鈥檓ah,听from听Listuguj, uh,听Qu茅bec, and听I used to work at 平特五不中 for nine years.听So听six years at the Social Equity听and听Diversity Education Office, three years, um, the head of the First Peoples鈥� House, taking the lead on that, and now I'm at Concordia working under,听under the Provost听Office鈥檚听Indigenous Directions where I'm working, working more, I guess on the overarching themes of Indigenous affairs on campus.听听
02:57听Sheetal:听I wanted to give each of our guests a chance to speak freely, so, in fact听there are very few edits and outside voices in this piece.听 Our three prominent voices in this episode are Tanya, Paige and Allan. They are also integral to our episode on the听Gault Nature Reserve, so look out for that.听
03:15听Sheetal:听I asked the three of them how they came to know about 平特五不中.听Let鈥檚 hear from Paige first.听
03:22听Paige:听Oh, it's so weird. I don't even know, to be honest. I think it was more听Montreal. I think I wanted to,听wanted to live in Montreal. I think I, I knew听of 平特五不中鈥檚 reputation as听being a really good school. Um, but I think that's really it, like I don't think I, I don't think I did, you know, a听university tour, I didn't consider any other universities. I mean, I think I tried to听'cause听I was like, well, I should consider other universities, right?听But I think 平特五不中 was always my, my top choice.听听
[03:53]听I think for sure I wanted to go somewhere where I didn't really know anyone. Like I, I really wanted to test out, uh,听and try out this independence. I think that was really, um, attractive for me, you know.听I think a lot of my friends were going to universities in the Maritimes and I was like no, I'm going to head the other way听[laughs].听Yeah.听
04:17听Tanya:听No! It, I had not ever heard of 平特五不中 and um听[mouth clicks],听I had a friend, uh, and it was her dream to go to 平特五不中. She was always talking about it when we were, uh, young, young adults.听Um, and听I just thought it was like for really smart people, you know? And I didn't consider myself one of those really smart people, so I was like, it just didn't, you know, it wasn't like something I even aspired to.听
04:47听Sheetal: Allan always knew about 平特五不中, since he听visited Montreal听from the听time听he was little. When they all came to 平特五不中 in some form or another 鈥� whether as staff or student 鈥� each of them sought out听community. And the one reliable place to find that was the First Peoples鈥櫶鼿ouse.听
05:05 Sheetal:听How did First Peoples鈥櫶鼿ouse, uh, play a role in your life when you were a student?听
05:11听Paige:听Oh, it was huge. It was, you know, that comfy place to go to in between classes, you know. It was basically a听home away from home,听it听really was.听Everyone there was really supportive and,听you know, you can get a bite to eat, get a coffee, just kind of, you know, sit on the couch and, and meet other students.听I think that was really crucial.听
[05:36]听Just like meeting other听Indigenous students, feeling听less alone at the听university, yeah, you know I had tons of friends, but I think it, you know, there's something about making connections with other indigenous students that really, um, helps with your sense of belonging and, and connection and, and you know, I think it was really key, just creating those relationships听and,听and getting the support听[unknown speaker interjects: 鈥渕hhm鈥漖. Yeah, I think it really helped me through my studies, even.听
06:03听Allan:听鈥楥ause听I think I鈥撎齱ith,听with staff and faculty, they get really busy,听and they'll come to the First Peoples鈥� House once or twice and then, even though听[inaudible]听there听was听always a commitment from a faculty member, Indigenous faculty member, but听well听I have to come in more often, I think just the way it is when you start teaching and when you听start-听have to do research and all these obligations听and听committees,听you know,听they'll come, then we'll see them during our kind of annual, you know, winter feast, they鈥檙e like听鈥渙h, I meant to come here more often鈥�, and that's just the way it is.听
[06:29]听But for students, it's听a听100%,听like a听doubt听(down-?),听like,听I-I-I could say this like without, you know, any hesitation that students felt at home, who, who, who used the center or听[inaudible]听used听that space because for that house, for them FPH, um, was their family and for many of them was听attributed to at least one of their support systems to actually succeeding at the institution. Because,听you know, 平特五不中 is very white. You know, you go into a classroom it's, y-you don't see much-听many Brown individuals.听听听
[06:59]听Not to say that there's not many Indigenous people who, who, who don't have to look Brown. There was something that was not there听i-i-in听the way, in terms of Western perspective. And coming into the house was also I would say some, sometimes more of a, a therapeutic session where they can actually voice those concerns and it was a space that was听very safe,听because听everyone understood what someone was saying, right? It wasn't new and they,听a-and I think just having everyone's back and just听like nodding听听
[07:27]听and reassuring, you know, you felt really better going to the house and then once you enter that space, then you never left it until you graduated, right?听听
07:37听Paige:听I've been connected to the First Peoples鈥� House, I would say since maybe 2005?听Uh,听even as a Concordia student, I was a summer student at the First Peoples鈥� House because they could-听they couldn鈥檛 employ anyone. Um, and I already have that connection, I knew听Waneek听and I knew Courtney and, um, so the alumni from that time, 2005, to even today,听they would say the house was just like,听i-it's part of their, their story and their听journey, you听know, during their听university life.听听
08:05听Sheetal:听Waneek鈥檚听name听will come听up a few times听in this piece. She was director of听First听Peoples鈥櫶鼿ouse, has been a听long-standing听activist in the Mohawk community,听and听she听went on to become an Olympic athlete.听听
08:17 Allan:听It was just kind of like听oohf听[sound of relief]. My goodness, what happened at the, you know, Faculty of Law, the Faculty of the Education,听or,听this meeting in the Arts build鈥撎齳ou know what I mean? It was something that was really like, oh, I like, I felt like I could like just like relax my shoulders,听take a deep breath and feel more at comfort and do the work that I know I have to do, right? I know there's always听stresses for meetings, um, but coming back to the, the space like was in some way a little bit of听a听healing. Didn't completely solve it, but it felt a little bit better.听听
08:50听Sheetal:听Now,听it may be difficult to imagine needing a听safe space on campus, but听when you hear next about some of the barriers to Indigenous participation, you may come to see why it鈥檚 necessary for such spaces to exist.听听
09:02听Paige:听I don't think I realized like how much of a culture shock it was, like I don't think at the time I听realized, you know, that I was kind of [laughs] missing the smaller connections, and you know, walking around a community and everyone knowing you, and, um, yeah. I, I think it definitely took a toll on my,听on my mental health and things like that, but only, only when I thought about it and realized it after听[laughs].听I think, uh, yeah, the friends I made,听you know,听I was able to like听find听my little place听i-in the city听[09:35]听and听in,听in my surroundings while I was there.听I think for us there's a lot of barriers to get to听university, so I think听like,听getting to听university, getting your degree, it's a huge accomplishment, um.听
09:47听Sheetal:听Could you describe some of those barriers?听
09:50听Paige:听Oh, it could be anything. It could be, you know, depending on where they went to school, access to different opportunities, poverty听[laughs], you know. I think residential schools and colonization [laughs] has created many barriers to, you know, created cycles of violence, loss of language, um, you know all of that kind of has an effect on, on individuals, and, and communities, right?听And so听[inhales], yeah.听
10:20听Sheetal:听Yeah, yeah.听
10:22听Sheetal:听Tanya describes some of her听own experiences and challenges. When she was young, she was in the foster care system, and at the same time,听she听went听to college in Alberta.听
10:34听Tanya:听And I started going to college, but my care ran out on my 20th birthday, which just happened to be at the end of November. Um, and then you're just kind of left on your own, like all supports are pulled and you're just left to fend for yourself. And so, I tried to stay in, in, in university, um,听but I just couldn't do it like I didn't have鈥撎齛nd I really felt like that was a听huge failure听for so many years until I realized like what a difficult circumstance that actually was.听
[11:09]听Um, and so,听and I didn't know, nobody had told me the rules of university, so I didn't know you're supposed to withdraw or do anything like that or that you听could ask听for help.听听Um, and so I just kind of left, like I just didn't go back one day, and so [laughs] my transcript is, is, you know, all fails and things, and things like that, but it was because I didn't even know what the rules were.听听
[11:35]听Um, and I just decided then that, well, I guess this isn't feasible for me, like this is not, you know, what's going to happen in my life. And,听so I actually went into politics听[laughs]. I ran in a provincial election听[mouth clicks]听when I was 20 years old, and I was听running, uh, to advocate for youth and like having a youth voice, and Indigenous voices, and, uh, being a youth recently from care.听听
[12:05]听So, I was advocating for issues like that. Um, didn't win, but it did give me an insight,听a little bit,听into how,听uh, politics works and the difference that you can make when you get involved, I think. And听so听I got really involved in things after that.听It was听a really heavy time for Indigenous people in Canada. There was a lot of racism, uh, you know. There was a Prime Minister who didn't care about Indigenous issues,听and so I decided that I would get involved.听
听12:36 Sheetal:听Tanya talks about her experiences getting accepted as a student at 平特五不中,听and听then talks about听some of the challenges of her undergraduate years.听This next section describes sensitive issues including colonialism, mental health and suicide.听听听
12:51听Tanya:听So my entire first year on campus, I was really walking around thinking it was a mistake,听that someone eventually was going to tap me on the shoulder and say听鈥渟orry, like,听you're not supposed to be here鈥�. Like I really struggled with that,听for my entire first year of university, just being like, pretty sure I鈥檓 not supposed to be here, I'm pretty sure someone somewhere [laughs] made a mistake, but I'm just听gonna听run with it.听And so, my first year I really exhausted myself.听听
[13:20]听I took five classes,听I was really like trying to prove myself and I really felt like I was representing not just my community, I'm鈥撎齀 think I was like, my cousin and I were the two, um, to go to university in our family like the, the two first ever听university students. And I think when you come to school as someone who is Indigenous or from a minority community, you sort of carry the weight of that with you, like trying to听represent your entire community and your entire family and prove yourself and,听also听carrying that as a youth in care, because all my life I was told that, you know, youth in care don't graduate high school,听youth听in care, um, tend to drop out higher youth in care don't go to university and college.听
[14:02]听Um, and it's the same with Indigenous youth. I always had these stats thrown at me about Indigenous youth as well, um,听that they don't finish high school, you know,听that they, they usually don't go to university.听[Mouth clicks]听and so, I just remember there was a lot of pressure my first year to try to prove myself, and by my second year I completely听burnt听myself out.听听
[14:27]听I ended up dropping out, um,听the winter semester of my second year because I just听couldn't听do it anymore and now,听you know鈥撎齛nd I felt听like that was a failure.听But now that I'm older and I, you know, my kids are older, I'm like oh my God, I had a literal toddler and,听I had two toddlers actually, and was going to school full time, I was involved in all these other things, like no wonder I couldn't handle it.听
[15:55]听Um, and so after that experience, I took school a little bit slower. I听[inaudible],听I听just took, I think 3 classes a semester, um, and I really tried to like,听enjoy the experience a bit more.听
15:13听Tanya:听Like there was a lot of times where I wanted to drop听out, um, especially in the first year, where I just didn't think I could handle it. Um, and it wasn't so much the school work as it听was the environment.听Like, um, when we were learning about Indigenous things, like all听the students听would turn and stare at me听or, you know, I was expected to be able to speak on issues, uh, that were kind of related to Indigenous stuff, like it was sort of like,听鈥渙h, you're Indigenous, like you should know all these things鈥�, but I didn't.听听
[15:42]听I didn't know, um, about a lot of things, uh, including some parts of Indigenous history, because we'd never learned that in school. Um, like the extent of residential schools or this thing called the 60鈥檚 scoop, like even though I was and had grown up in care and been a youth in care, nobody had ever named it for me, or听had ever said that it was part of a larger system than just myself and my mom听who, you know, we were taken away from.听听
[16:14]听So, I found it also,听too, like, very empowering, um, and also re-traumatizing like there's sort of like this mix of like, it felt good to finally be able to听name听things like the 60鈥檚 scoop or residential schools or听see how that connected to my own circumstances. But it was also extremely emotionally draining,听and, um, in some ways re-traumatizing, like seeing myself through the eyes of, of education I guess?听
[16:53]听[Mouth clicks]听So听I remember that being really tough for me and I think I sought counseling. Oh, and then, um, yeah, and then in my first semester of university, my best friend, the one whose dream it was to go to 平特五不中, she committed suicide.听听Um, and it was just like,听the worst thing that's ever happened to me, even still, like it was just,听it was听awful, um,听[mouth clicks]听and I, you know,听I had just moved to听听
[17:27]听Montreal so I just had my husband and my kids, like I didn't really have anyone to talk to, um, and so I actually came to the school and was like I can't do this anymore, I,听I don't know,听I don't, I don't听wanna听live either,听like I was like, really devastated.听Um, and so they actually brought in the elder that had been part of our orientation week and he, he helped me so much like [cries]听and,听uh听sorry, I鈥檒l always be so听听
[17:57]听grateful because[sniffles]听suicide is something that happens to us a lot and so鈥撎齜ut it had never happened to me,听to-听in someone that I was close to.听And this, um, elder, like he sat with me and he just explained death听[crying]听and how people, you know, what happens after we die, um, and why people do this.听
[18:26]听And it was just, I remember just feeling such peace afterwards because,听his words made so much sense.听Um, and听I think that's when I realized how important it was to have that kind of a connection.听You know, if I was just some random student, like I don't think anyone would have taken the time to, to care for me in that way and I think that's听a really beautiful thing about our culture, is that we,听we care about each other.听
[18:55]听We care deeply, you know, and we have sort of this听shared experience, and so we understand [sniffles] when bad things happen, um, because we've been there before and I think,听I think that was, you know, obviously, like a very powerful thing for me, um, and I听didn't end up dropping out.听[Mouth clicks]听I didn't,听and, and also my cohort,听after I found out, um, we had an exam, and I didn't know that you were allowed to ask for [laughs] a deferral, um, and nobody had, you know, thought to tell me that.听听
[19:32]听So, I thought I had to write this exam, and I remember my friend from Kahnawake听[cries]听鈥撎齀鈥檓 sorry, I didn't know that I was going to cry听鈥撎齣nvited听me to her house to study, and she just looked after me. I just stayed at her house all night long, I couldn't sleep and so I was like pacing her house and she sent her dog to sleep with me and I was like smoking and like petting her dog and I eventually fell asleep and then we went to school, and I wrote the exam the next day and I ended up getting [laughs] like an A.听听听
[20:05]听Um, but I was so grateful to have these Indigenous friends who were part of my journey and who understood the听pressure听that we were under and also understood the circumstance that I had just experienced because,听I mean[sniffles], yeah, like we've all been there at some point. Um, and just like the compassion听that I was treated with,听I think it showed me that, um,听well听I mean first I learned how strong I was听[laughs].听听
[20:40]听I learned that bad things can happen and you can keep going.听And听I also learned听the importance of supportive relationships听[sniffles].听And yeah, I think, I started thinking about it and how important that was and how important it was for other Indigenous students as well.听
听21:05听Sheetal: I asked Tanya whether her friend who had always dreamed of going to 平特五不中 ever got to go.听听
21:10听Tanya:听She had actually moved to Montreal. So, um, you know I had come here by myself,听I had started this life with my boyfriend, and now husband, had babies like almost right away and, um, she came out, but she had a lot of鈥撎齛nd it was her dream to go to 平特五不中 and she was an amazing student. She was so smart. She was really, really smart.听听
[21:39]听Um, but she had a lot of issues, like she had an eating disorder and she had, um鈥撎齛nd it鈥檚 one of the听most hardest, like difficult听mental health issues to get help for because there鈥檚 a lot of denial and there鈥檚-听it鈥檚 also really hard to access, um, mental health support in Quebec听[laughs]听for, for anything.听Um, and,听yeah, and she just didn鈥檛 make it.听
22:21听Sheetal: As we talk about challenges and barriers to Indigenous participation, in the same breath we must听also听honour Indigenous excellence.听First听Peoples鈥櫶鼿ouse has been not just a safe space, but also a place that fosters celebration and the enabling of Indigenous excellence. Let鈥檚 hear about some of these听programs.听
听
22:43听Allan:听We听have a lot鈥撎齮here's now a library downstairs. There was always a library, I think what it, what it was before, it was just, uh, books were all over and then we kind of put all the books in one place. We bought more, uh, shelves, we actually used an app called, uh,听Libby? I听think that's what it is, where you can actually, uh, you download this app and you can categorize your whole library to see what you have and if you lend it out.听听
[23:10]听And, um, that, that,听that's it, so students using听the library鈥撎齀 think one of the things that we needed to do though, which I didn't have time-听'cause听we were,听you know, in, in any job you have a few projects going and there's some that have to take the back burner and the next step of, of that was t-to buy more current books, right? Um,听already it's great that the library exists at 平特五不中 where there's a lot of great resources, and I know that听Nikki听and a few other folks would听[mumbles]听I鈥檝e听always said that if you need more Indigenous books, we鈥檒l order, order it, so we never, we've always had this听support听by the library.听
[23:43]听But we also wanted听to just- had to h-have听something added in addition to that in house, which would matter for students to have access, which is just important to听say听鈥測ou know what, just go downstairs and take a look what we have鈥�. So,听what needs to happen with that,听that听we need to update, um,听they need to update the selection of books that they have.听听
24:00听Sheetal:听Would you say that听students, Indigenous students听use the First Peoples鈥� House library more than they use听th-the 平特五不中 libraries as a study space,听as a听[Allan interjects:听鈥渁s a study space yes, but they-鈥漖 work space听听
24:11听Allan:听Yeah,听like I would say more听for study, for study space听and, uh,听鈥榗ause听when we had built that, that area downstairs in the basement, you know, it was a wonderful gift to have this beautiful table and these chairs,听and then we have put a whiteboard where I would go downstairs like after work or at 5, you听know, I would always do my rounds to clean up and tidy or just put things and, and students would use it, right?听听
[24:37]听So we sit听down听and I could see, you know, uh, engineering or math equations on the whiteboard, uh, I could see some books were out听'cause听some people would look, and, uh so it was a space that was always used for, um, studying.听And it was greatly important because how it was divided听was,听in the main floor, it got a lot of, it was听more busy听in terms of like people were talking. So,听people prior would then leave the First Peoples鈥� House to go find sanctuary in, in, in a quiet space, like the library to study.听听
[25:06]听But then I think once we were able to revamp the basement when I first came, um, then w-we developed more spaces for quiet spaces. So that improved.听听
25:15听Sheetal:听Other programs听include听Bannock Wednesdays, implemented by Paige, where people听can听come in on Wednesdays and have a hot bowl of soup and听bannock.听Paige also talks about听High Performance Camp,听which听was started by former听director of First听Peoples鈥櫶鼿ouse,听Waneek,听whom we mentioned before.听
25:32听Paige:听Um,听I think it started out with a听major focus on听health听sciences. Um, we kind of opened it up a little bit to other, other fields, but I think it was mainly about, um, sports, athleticism,听health听sciences.听Um,听it was um,听[audio lags]听encouraging First Nations, Inuit and M茅tis youth across, across, uh, Canada, who were, you know, interested in having that experience,听like thinking about going to听university, thinking about professional careers, and thinking about what it听take- what are the skills necessary to,听you know to, to do that.听听
[26:13]And so, it was founded by听Waneek听and so she, you know, as an Olympian, I think high performance was more of her lingo and so she was focusing on听athletes听who might not have been the best at school but could kind of, um,听use sports as a way to, you know, learn about life skills and think about your career and, and apply those in various ways so it's developing this high performance听mentality,听I guess?听听
[26:41]听For, for me, when I, when I inherited that program and, and continued running it, it was really just like,听again,听building community between Indigenous youth from, from across the from across Canada and,听um听and you know,听pushing them to reach their goals,听really,听and introducing them to life听[audio lags]听the听university and so,听yeah, it wasn't necessarily high performance as it was just, you know [laughs].听听
[27:06]听I don鈥檛 know, learning something new, getting out of your community and, and, and still yeah for sure, pushing forward to your goals and getting that听support听you need.听
27:13听Sheetal:听First听Peoples鈥� House听also organizes a graduation ceremony听in听addition to regular convocation听for Indigenous students.听
27:17听Paige:听Yeah, so we would organize a dedicated graduation ceremony for Indigenous students at 平特五不中. Um, we had these stoles or scarves made, um, as,听you know,听with听the听different symbols on them and they would wear that at their graduation. It was, you know, a meal and a celebration for graduates and their families.听听
[27:45]听And so,听right around convocation,听we would try to, you know,听pick a date that was sort of in the middle of all the convocations so that everyone, m- or most people could attend and, and it was a chance for,听yeah.听It was just like a nice celebration for graduates and their families听to,听you know, to get a chance听to, have an opportunity to just like, you know, we听[audio lags]听celebrate their achievements and talk about their experiences, what they learn, what they hope to听ach-, you know, do afterwards and,听that's it.听听
28:30听Paige:听Um, you know, I think it's a, it's a huge achievement to, to听convocate听from听university, graduate with a degree and, and go on into your communities to become, you know, professionals,听take on that knowledge and, and support your communities, and so I think it was really important for us to,听听you know, to show our appreciation and respect and, and you know听h-听let students know how proud we were of their, their achievements.听听
[28:57]听I think it was really just important for us to听[laughs]听distinguish them and celebrate them, lift them up and, um,听continue to just build those relationships, I think.听The graduation dinner became a, an annual thing. I think we, we were even trying to start an听alumni, you know, reunion.听We had a couple of those before, before, um, I,听yeah听and听I think Allan actually kept up, kept with the alumni reunions.听听听
29:26听Tanya:听When it was time to like听walk听down the aisle and, and you know,听for graduates-听Indigenous graduates, I just started crying and I couldn't stop, like it was like, oh my gosh, like this is听[sniffles], this is over now. This sort听of, community, and it, like it's a very small community too. Like we all know each other, we all socialize together, we had, you know, been going on these retreats together听[sniffles], uh, we'd all been involved in a lot of the same things.听听
[29:57]听Um, so I was actually really sad when I graduated because I, it meant saying goodbye and it meant kind of striking out of my own and starting my听new听life as a university graduate and starting a career, and I think that that was something really听really听special听and a lot of us are still in touch. Like a lot of us, you know, we still hang out, we still go to each other's houses, we still, you know, talk听a lot, so I think a lot of those friendships are like,听lifelong听friendships, and I think that's just听such a beautiful thing.听
30:34听Sheetal:听When Tanya was a student, she also accessed services on campus that inspired her to work at听Mcgill, particularly at SSMU.听
30:43听Tanya:听So,听I went to 平特五不中 to get my Bachelor of Social Work degree. I started in the fall of 2008. Um, and at that time I had a听1-year听old听daughter, 1 陆, and a 3-year-old son,听and I was lucky enough to get a spot at the听SSMU daycare on campus and so that made a huge difference in my life.听
[31:11]听I was able to come to school with my two kids, they were properly looked after, I got to see them every day on campus. It was just听such a blessing and I realized like how important it was to have support on campus for families, um, so that kind of became something I was involved in, like right away just because I had two kids on campus.听听
[31:35]听Um, and then I got involved in, uh, like First Peoples鈥� House and Indigenous听issues听and, and stuff like that, um, and then sort of towards the middle of my school career, uh, in 2011, um, I got pregnant. I found out that I was having my third child and so it听sort听of interrupted my university career for a bit.听
[32:08]听Um, but she was actually able鈥撎齮hey had just built a nursery at that听time.听So听I was really lucky,听I would like, my baby was one of the first babies to go to this nursery that had just been built on campus for babies that were five months and older. And听so听I was able to continue my schooling and like breastfeed between classes.听听听听
32:29听Tanya:听I was one of their, I think,听first Indigenous participants, um, and so I stayed really involved with them after that, like speaking on panels and things like that. I was involved in, uh, speaking about Indigenous issues and advocacy and, uh, family issues. So those听were听kind of,听[laughs]听yeah.听I don't know how I did it, like I had [laughs] you know, small kids, I had a baby and I was just, I just remember being busy,听like all the time.听听
[33:00]听If I wasn't busy with school and classes and homework, I was busy with the kids, and I was busy advocating and then I was busy, you听know, just doing, um, all of those things, but they've all led me to, to good things and so I'm, I'm glad.听But like now that I'm older I'm like, oh my God, like I don't have the energy [laughs] to like finish my work day, like I don't know where I had this energy, but I guess I did. [laughs].听
33:43听Sheetal:听As always, look to our show notes for additional material, such as timelines, photos, links to archival material and more. Many thanks to our guests Paige Isaac, Allan听Vicaire听and Tanya Lalonde.听听听
33:58听Sheetal:听Thank you听also to Professor听Nathalie Cooke,听director of this project at 平特五不中听Libraries鈥櫶齊OAAr听team,听and to Jacquelyn Sundberg,听associate听producer.听 Our title song called happy sandbox was composed by听Mativve听and sourced from freesound.org. All composers are listed in our show notes.听I鈥檓 Sheetal听Lodhia, producer for this episode. Thanks for listening!听
Do you remember the smell of your first library? Jacquelyn Sundberg, the associate producer of Voices From the Footnotes, surely does! In this episode, she shares some childhood library-related anecdotes, what brought her to 平特五不中, and how her love for stories led her to library and archival work.
听
Jacquelyn as a young child, with her nose not far from the shag carpet.
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Projects that Jacquelyn has helped create in the past year:
Quel est le r么le d鈥檜n archiviste 脿 la r茅f茅rence 脿 平特五不中?
En 茅coutant ce balado avec l鈥檃rchiviste 脿 la r茅f茅rence Julien Couture, vous y d茅couvrirez un travail plein de surprises. Branchez-vous pour des faits amusants tout droit sortis de nos dep么ts.
What does a reference archivist at 平特五不中 do? Based on this interview with reference archivist Julien Couture, this job is anything but monotonous. Tune in for fun facts from the stacks. 鈥� Note 鈥� this episode is entirely in French.
Does your childhood library have a tragic story behind it? Nathalie Cooke鈥檚 does. We get to know the professor and associate dean of ROAAr in this episode, where she talks about her first library and her initial experience working with archives.
Credits
Host & Producer: Sheetal Lodhia
Production and technical assistance: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Transcription: Labiba Faiza
Guest:听
Nathalie Cooke
Music
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org
End credits: Happy-music by monkeyman535, Sourced from Freesound.org.
En 茅coutant ce balado avec Alexandre Soucy, vous d茅couvrirez que parmi les employ茅s, archivistes et biblioth茅caires 艙uvrant pour ROAAr se cachent des parcours uniques ayant men茅 脿 travailler aupr猫s des collections de l鈥橴niversit茅. Pour Alexandre, ce fut d鈥檃bord la musique et la litt茅rature听.
By listening to this podcast with Alexandre Soucy, you will discover that the employees, archivists and librarians at ROAAr have unique stories that have brought them to work with collections at 平特五不中. For Alexandre, his journey so far was paved with music and literature.鈥� Note this episode is entirely in French.
Singing in the stacks! In this episode, we meet Leah Weitzner, a former student staff member at ROAAr, and a talented singer. With a fascination for performance practice and an interest in music from between 1500 to 1700, Leah brought听her skills, curiosity, and enthusiasm to ROAAr for the past three years.听
What has changed since the 1940s for Black students and staff at 平特五不中? In this episode, we talk with Beryl Dickinson-Dash (now Rapier) and two pairs of fathers and daughters who were students, faculty, or staff 鈥� or all of the above 鈥� at 平特五不中. Hear about a lot of firsts and the unique challenges faced by Black students and staff in the first half of this two-part episode.
Explore Additional Content
Photos
Left to right: Beryl Dickinson-Dash, news clipping from 平特五不中 Winter Carnival Scrapbook, 1949, MUA 0000-1898-1027C, Beryl Rapier Yearbook photo, 1949 (平特五不中 Yearbooks, Old 平特五不中 1949), John Carlos, Tommie Smith, Peter Norman 1968 (Angelo Cozzi (Mondadori Publishers), Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons).
Production and technical assistance: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Transcription: Labiba Faiza
Research Assistance: Michelle Macleod
Guest:
Beryl Rapier
Bradley Rapier
Prof. Emeritus Glyne Piggott
Adrienne Piggott
Ron Williams
Brittany Williams
Music
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org,
Transitions: Horn lilt 2 by contextcollapse, Sombre Piano by Luckylittleraven, Happy and Groovy by Tyops, all sourced from Freesound.org,
End credits: Happy-music, by monkeyman355,
Full Transcript
5 Generations in 80 years:
Black Perspectives at 平特五不中, from the 1940s to the 2020s
PART 1
Beryl 鈥� Beryl Dickinson-Dash (Now Beryl Rapier)听
Bradley 鈥� Bradley Rapier听
Ron 鈥� Ron Williams听
Brittany 鈥� Brittany Williams听
Glyne听鈥撎鼼lyne听Piggott听
Adrienne 鈥� Adrienne Piggott听
Sheetal 鈥� Sheetal听Lodhia听(interviewer/host)听
First Half听
00:02听Sheetal:听Welcome to鈥疺oices from the Footnotes, a podcast series presented by the 平特五不中 Libraries鈥欌�疪OAAr鈥痶eam. Each episode we will explore some of the hidden histories at 平特五不中, looking at places, people鈥痑nd artifacts. The library collections are rich and鈥痠nteresting,鈥痓ut this series flows from the silences also present. It is鈥痮ur desire to gather stories and share them.鈥疘t is our鈥痝oal is to highlight voices who have often been overlooked in histories and鈥痠n鈥痑rchives.鈥�
[00:34]听I am today鈥檚 host, Sheetal听Lodhia.鈥��
[00:40]听Before we begin today鈥檚 episode, we acknowledge that 平特五不中 is situated on the traditional territory of the鈥疜anien鈥檏eh脿:ka, a place鈥痺hich鈥痟as long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst nations.听We鈥痳ecognize鈥痑nd respect鈥痶he鈥疜anien鈥檏eh脿:ka鈥痑s the traditional custodians of the lands and waters on which we meet today.听
Episode Intro听听
01:02听Sheetal:听In today鈥檚 episode,听we cover a rather large stretch of history鈥攆rom听the 1940s to the 2020s鈥攈earing听from 5 generations of听Black students and staff at 平特五不中. We hear from Beryl Dickinson-Dash听(now Beryl Rapier), 平特五不中鈥檚 first Black Carnival Queen, and then from two pairs of fathers and daughters听who were students,听faculty,听or staff鈥攐r听all of听the above鈥攁t 平特五不中.听听
[01:30]听You鈥檒l also get a small snapshot of Montreal through the years鈥攎any of our guests are听Montrealers. You鈥檒l hear about a lot of firsts and about unique challenges faced by Black students and staff. And this piece only just begins to tell听the听stories听that deserve a place in our archives.听听听
Beryl and Montreal in the 30s and 40s听
01:51听Beryl:听And听I am Beryl Rapier. Uh, what more do you want to know? [laughs] I鈥檓 92 years old, and I live in Las Vegas.听I鈥檓听fortunate to still be here,听all my peers are dropping off.听
02:09听Sheetal: Beryl Rapier, her married name, was once Beryl Dickinson-Dash, a student at 平特五不中. We were fortunate to speak with her and her son,听Bradley, who arranged the听Zoom meetup.听Beryl became a sensation, both in Canada and the US, because she was鈥攊n 1949鈥斊教匚宀恢锈�檚 first Black Carnival Queen.听听
[02:33]听We hope to have an episode dedicated exclusively to the Carnival Queen tradition at 平特五不中. There is in fact a great CBC Radio piece with Beryl on her Carnival Queen experience. We will provide links to this in the show notes. But getting back to this episode, we spoke with Beryl about her experiences as a Black student at 平特五不中 and what it was like growing up in Montreal in the 1930s and 1940s.听
03:01听Beryl:听I grew up in听a听French neighborhood called Saint-Henri,听well it was听a听French name,听but it was听Saint-Henri.听And, um, there were just, uh,听three听Black families,听really. Um, uh,听my听godmother lived on one street,听my听mother鈥檚 good friend.听听
[03:18]听And听I went听to听Catholic school. I went to, um,听St.听Thomas Aquinas. And, uh,听we didn鈥檛 have middle school we just went elementary and then to high school.听And then I went to D鈥橝rcy McGee, and, um,听I听did my high school years there. And then I did a,听uh,听one year after听high school听at听Marianopolis听College,听before听I听went to听平特五不中, yeah.听
[03:45]听And, so, um, the, you know,听where I,听like I said,听I was in a鈥攚e were in a听French听neighbourhood.听So听we,听I kind of spoke French a little bit then,听learning French with the kids, didn鈥檛 know how it was written but,听you know,听got听your,听just,听just playing with children and, um,听and that was it.听And听then when I went to, uh,听like I said, when I went to 平特五不中, I met my husband and we got married and, um,听then went to Scotland听听
04:18听Sheetal: Bradley, Beryl鈥檚 son,听will听often prompt his mom during the interview to have her recount听particular听stories.听
04:22听Bradley:听Mom,听tell them a bit more听about听those,听about when you were growing up, those-听the times you had and,听like,听it鈥檚鈥擺to听Sheetal]听she would,听she鈥檚 told me so many stories of when,听[Sheetal laughs]听remind like,听like just even when you were, uh,听you know, just different time,听like,听you听didn鈥檛听try to date someone or you had to take the bus and you听cou-听听you听had听curfews, and all those things.听
04:37听Beryl:听Oh, well,听yeah, well,听well we did. Uh,听well, we were,听we weren鈥檛 loose like you kids are now. I mean,听we had to鈥擺laughs]听no,听I mean really, we had to find a way home. I used to say to my听m鈥攎y听mother she used to give me a curfew听[if]听I was going to a party and I鈥檇 say,听鈥渂ut by the time I get there, I鈥檒l听only be there听maybe听a听half鈥斺�澨�
[04:54]听鈥淲ell,听that鈥檚 your problem.听You have to be home by 10,听or 11,鈥澨齩r whatever the curfew was at that time. But nobody had a car, I听mean, I didn鈥檛 grow up with a car. I grew up with the streetcar and the bus and so,听I mean,听times were really different. Everybody knew nearly everybody that you visited,听sort of. I didn鈥檛 go to anybody鈥檚 home that my mother didn鈥檛 know and, um,听and everybody was like that,听so听it听was鈥斕�
[05:22]听we had a small kind of community that was like friends,听but more like family,听and听uh,听听because听that鈥檚 what it was.听And as I said because I was in a French neighborhood,听there weren鈥檛,听there weren鈥檛 many English speaking听[people]听in the, in the听area so we just gravitated to the people听who spoke听our language.听Um, like I said, I learned to speak French playing with kids,听but it wasn鈥檛 proper听French, I听couldn鈥檛 even tell you how to spell the words,听听
[05:47]听but, um, [laughs softly]听but听you know,听that was it.听And everybody walked to school and, uh,听or took the听streetcar home, you know, that鈥檚 how it was. And we went to the same church and, um,听that was another gathering where I met different people.听In fact,听his [referring to听Bradley] best friend鈥檚 mother,听that鈥檚 how听I听became friends with her,听from going to church and听school like that,听but听that鈥檚听how听you became friends.听It was,听I mean, it听was so different, the dark ages.听
06:15听Sheetal: Beryl shares with us that most of her听friends and family听came from meeting with other听anglophones in her neighbourhood, or else fellow Black community members through her churches,听where they had a close-knit听group.听
06:28听Beryl:听It was the听Union United Church,听and, uh,听it was,听with the听Black minister,听and that鈥檚 where听we听went. I did go to two churches because we were brought up Catholic and I went to听mass first and then went to this church,听which the nuns didn鈥檛 like that, but I didn鈥檛 care.听
[06:44]听I did it anyway听[laughs]听because that鈥檚 where my friends were.听And, um, but听I would get in trouble nearly听every Monday morning. They鈥檇 say, 鈥渙h,听I understand you鈥檙e听[indistinct]听Sunday school over here.鈥澨齀 said,听鈥渨ell that鈥檚 not a bad thing!鈥� [speaking as a nun]听鈥淲ell, you鈥檙e not supposed to be doing that,鈥澨齜ut I did it anyway.听
[07:02]听But,听however,听so,听but that鈥檚听with听the times,听you know, that was听our听only really,听um,听even听dances we had in the church,听in the church basement,听and you know,听people鈥攅ven the same Oscar Peterson,听who became famous,听听[Sheetal: Yes!]听he started, he started there and his sister taught music lessons, you know. So,听the community was small,听you practically knew everybody, you know what I mean?听 Everybody kind of, you know, [indistinct]听鈥渙h,听that a dash kid鈥� or 鈥渢hat鈥檚 a so and so听kid.鈥澨�
[07:29]听So,听that鈥檚 how it was, you know鈥斕�
07:36听Bradley:听And you were the oldest?听You have听to tell, tell what you鈥斕�
07:39听Beryl:听Oh, yeah. Well,听I'm the oldest of听four.
07:41听Sheetal:听As Bradley and听Beryl听mention,听she听is the oldest of听four听children. She told us that her mother was an only听child,听and听didn鈥檛 want her children to grow up lonely like she did. When Beryl went to CEGEP, she went to听Marionopolis听College, which at that time was still a Catholic College.听听听
07:53听Beryl:听Well,听it was a听Catholic,听[Sheetal: Mm-hmm]听Catholic听college听and, um,听nuns taught.听There听were听nun- nuns and, uh,听there were, um, lay- laypeople too, but听they're mostly听nuns.听Um, w-well,听actually I liked, I liked it there because it鈥檚 more individual, um,听you know, but, um,听I thought I needed to get somewhere where I can meet some guys or something because it was all women [Sheetal听and听Beryl laugh]. But, uh,听yeah听so听I went from there then,听yeah. It, um,听and most of the schools were not, most of the schools听听听
[08:30]听I went to weren鈥檛 mixed anyway. There were听all-girls schools, there were听all-boys school,听yeah.听And even my high school was only girls, girls鈥櫶齭chool鈥攁nd听the boys,听and听they didn鈥檛 even keep the boys, we听didn鈥檛 go,听we couldn鈥檛听even听go to recess at the same time,听[Sheetal: Oh!] we would, yeah.听They kept the boys at a different time than us.听It鈥檚 crazy,听right?听听
[08:52]听[Mumbles]听Where was I? Completely different building,听yeah, and separated the gate,听uh,听you know,听the听fence.听It was quite different,听we didn鈥檛,听I didn鈥檛 ever听went听to a mixed school听[Sheetal: Okay]听except University,听[Sheetal:听Till听university]. Not until the university, you鈥檙e right.听
[09:12]听Well,听I mean you didn鈥檛,听I mean everybody did the same,听so we,听nobody thought anything about it,听you know.听Even the Protestants,听I mean, it wasn鈥檛 only the Catholics that did it, all the schools were like that. They, they听were separated until you got up听to maybe听grade 12听or, you know,听the听Protestant schools were together,听boys and girls.听
09:32听Sheetal: It was at听Marianopolis听where Beryl first thought to apply to 平特五不中.听听
09:38听Beryl:听Oh,听at听Marianopolis听I thought about it,听yeah,听yeah,听I thought about it. I thought if I could be accepted, I鈥檇 like to go there, although it was more听expen鈥擨听went to听Marinapolis听College听because听money-wise, you know,听it was听more, it was听cheaper than going to 平特五不中. And, um,听my mother was an enterprising woman听[laughs]听because we didn鈥檛 have the money,听and she went to the purser when we walked in,听
[10:01]听鈥淚鈥檓听gonna听pay听you听in three installments,鈥� he was so shocked he didn鈥檛 even know what to say听[clap]听and, uh,听because she didn鈥檛 have the fees to pay right up-front听[laughs],听and so that鈥檚 how I got there.听
[10:13]听And, um, at that time听too,听you know, there was a quota.听So听then听they took so many from out of town,听so many out of the town students,听and so many local Canadian students as well, so yeah, so that鈥檚 how that听kind听of听went,听yeah,听yeah,听yeah.听
10:34听Sheetal: When Beryl speaks of a quota, she means a quota of Black students,听most听of whom came from out of town.听Out of a total student population of 8500听at 平特五不中, there were only 150 Black students.听Jim Crow laws in the US, which enforced听a听racial segregation, were听never formally听present in Canada and in Montreal.听However,听Black people, like Beryl鈥檚 father, held working-class jobs and lived听only听in particular neighbourhoods like Saint-Henri.听听
Intro to Fathers and Daughters听
11:20 Sheetal:听Beryl is kind of our grandmother figure in this piece, and the rest of our guests comprise two father-daughter pairs. We鈥檒l go chronologically, beginning with Professor Emeritus听Glyne听Piggott and his daughter Adrienne听Piggott听who was both a student and is now听a听staff听member听at 平特五不中.听听
11:32听Glyne:听Well, my, my first name is听Glyne听and my last name is Piggott.听Glyne听Piggott. And, uh, what would you like to know? I was born in Barbados, uh, 70, 79 years ago. Uh, so I鈥檒l soon be fourscore. Uh, uh, just a few months from now, I鈥檒l be fourscore. Uh, I was educated in Jamaica. I went to the University of the West Indies for my undergraduate degree.听听听
[12:03]听And then I went to the University of Toronto for two graduate degrees, in Linguistics. Those are my鈥攗m, then I taught at the University of Western Ontario for, a year? In the Department of Anthropology. Why anthropology? Well, because I worked on Indigenous Studies.听
[12:31]听Uh, I worked on Ojibwe. Uh, that qualified me for teaching in the Department of Anthropology at the University of Western Ontario.听So听I taught there for one year, and then I came to 平特五不中 in 1973.听
12:49听Adrienne:听So,听my name is Adrienne Piggott. Um, I鈥檝e been a听平特五不中ian听my entire life. I arrived on campus at 8 months old and pretty much never left. Um, I was raised in Montreal, uh, and have lived in the Montreal area my whole life. Um, I鈥檓 from a family of听平特五不中ians, so everyone in my family is a听平特五不中ian,听with the exception of听my boyfriend. Um, what else about me?听听听
[13:20]听Uh, I studied听computer science and translation. Um, I鈥檓 currently employed at 平特五不中 as, uh, the听Senior听Advisor for听Procurement and as the听Co-chair for the Subcommittee for Racialized Ethnic Persons, and this past summer I was elected as听Governor for听Administrative and听Support听Staff.听
13:37听Sheetal: Our next听father-daughter听pair听is Ron Williams and Brittany Williams. Like Adrienne, Brittany was first a student and is now听also a听staff听member听at 平特五不中.听听
13:48听Ron:听Uh, Ron Williams, uh,听class of 90, 平特五不中,听Bachelor's in听Science,听uh,听major in听Psychology.听
14:00听Brittany:听Yeah. Um, so yeah, my name is Brittany Williams, Brittany. Um, and I, for right now, am the acting Assistant Dean of Admissions and Recruitment at 平特五不中鈥檚 Faculty of Law, um, which still feels very surreal to say,听uh, because I graduated from the Faculty of Law two years ago, not even officially two years ago听[laughs softly]. Um, I like to joke with like the ink鈥檚 not even dry on my degrees yet, um, and somehow, I鈥檓 ending up kind of on the other side of things.听
Life in Montreal Continues听
14:31听Sheetal: From Professor Piggott to Adrienne,听to Ron and Brittany,听we have snapshots of听Montreal and听平特五不中 from the 70s, 80s, 90s听and 2000s,听until now.听Unlike the rest of our interviewees,听Professor Piggott moved to Montreal as an adult early in his career. His parents in听Barbados听were听laborers听and later immigrated to the US.听听听
[14:58]听Professor Piggott moved to Montreal听after completing his PhD at听the University of Toronto听and after working at the University of Western Ontario.听He arrived during the rise of Quebec nationalism,听about a decade after the Quiet Revolution.听
15:14听Glyne:听So听when I came, Quebec was, at听the stirring of this听nationalism was right there, and it reminded me a lot of the, of the initial phases when, uh, nationalism in Jamaica and in Barbados, when the independence movement that was sweeping the British, British Empire at the time.听So听I had an understanding and some empathy,听
[15:45]听uh, with the movement, uh, as it, as it developed in, in Montreal. Um, I didn鈥檛 know much about Quebec, but Montreal I knew. I, of course later, I, because I traveled a lot in Northern Quebec and Central Quebec, I got to know more of the community in Northern, Central Quebec, but initially, uh, I was, I had some understanding of the movement that was taking place in the 70s.听听
[16:18]听Uh, um, I wasn鈥檛 here for the crisis in [indistinct], but I was here when the, when the听Parti听Qu茅b茅cois won the election in 1976. I was here for the referendum. Uh, uh, look, I had some understanding and some sympathy for the [movement]. I never engaged politically, but I did understand the movement.听
16:46听Sheetal:听How did people treat you differently in your sort of day-to-day home life compared with your 平特五不中 life, for example?听
16:56听Glyne:听Well, look, I think we, Black people everywhere, uh, experience forms of microaggression and, uh, people here, I, I experienced that, there鈥檚 no doubt about that. I experienced it at 平特五不中, I experienced it in the community in Montreal. I, I was, uh, um, I, I was shielded somewhat, being an academic, and my own family was shielded a bit, being an academic,听听
[17:30] because we, the听commun- the circle, then the social circle that we sort of moved around in was, was largely composed of fellow academics and professional people. That provided us with some听insulation听and we lived in communities that were largely, uh, not, uh, s- not the communities there that were predominantly Black. We lived first on Nun鈥檚 Island when we,听听
[17:58]听that was fundamentally, that was certainly not Black when we lived there, we lived on Nun鈥檚 Island. Uh, uh, then we lived in, on the South Shore and, and we m-moved to a largely Qu茅b茅cois community. My neighbors were all Qu茅b茅cois, we interacted with them, we, but, uh, I, I experienced the same kind of microaggression.听
[18:30]听Sometimes you听have to听stand up for,听but,听ignore, ignorance听sometimes, but sometimes you can鈥檛 ignore it. Uh, it鈥檚 a fact of Black life, that uh, in White communities, that, uh, regardless of who you are, no, no one recognizes you until you say, 鈥渨ell, I am鈥斺�澨齛nd you, suddenly, there鈥檚 a slight change in attitude, because for some reason, being an academic, being a professor,听听
[19:00]听uh, it brings out [laughs softly] some [indistinct] what you might, what you expect people would always have, that is this sense of, uh, humanity that would treat you, everyone with dignity and respect, but, uh, we were, we were shielded to some extent by听[indistinct], or the environment.听
19:20听Sheetal:听Both Professor Piggott听and Ron Williams鈥� family听come from the West Indies, in fact. But Ron鈥檚 experience of Montreal was somewhat different,听being born and听growing up in听Montreal, like Beryl. Ron鈥檚听parents were not听well-off but听were educated,听they were听teachers.听听
19:39听Ron:听Um, I would say we, we听had several different waves,听if you will. Uh,听because听when I think of it, um, we were听fr-,听well,听we were born in Montreal. My parents were immigrants from Trinidad, um, so we were first generation, if you will. Neither of them obviously听spoke听French when they came here.听Um,听so we grew up and, um,听we grew up partly in,听in, um,听a lot in LaSalle,听
[20:02]听uh, a听little bit听of Montreal, but then a lot of formative years, if you want to call it that, in LaSalle.听And, um, you know, by, by no means were we, um, you know, uh,听well to do or anything even close to that. You know,听it was tough. It was tough. And at one point my parents did get divorced,听so听it听just turned a tough situation听a little bit tougher, at,听as it were. But,听you know,听um,听we ended up actually听later on听moving from La Salle鈥攁nd听my mom was a teacher,听
[20:31]听so that,听that runs in the family, we have听a lot of teachers and professors in听our听family,听and, um,听she ended up, uh,听moving us to the South Shore,听in Brossard, which was like night and day when we look at, um,听when we compare them to LaSalle. And when I,听when we,听when we moved there听I听actually,听I听mean,听you know,听the whole, a听lot of the South Shore was like,听you know, your parking lots were like,听your听driveway听was听like rocks,听[laughs]听'cause听it was very听very听new.听And it was听76, the听year听of听the Olympics, when we moved there.听
[21:00]听Uh,听and听I remember moving鈥攕o听while we went to high school,听we got bused to a high school in Greenfield Park, you know, so you, we did have other听Black students. Where we were living,听not so much. A lot of French, uh, a lot of Greek students and a lot of Armenian students in that area. Um, a lot of families in that area as well. Uh, but I remember we, and,听but we went to, um,听elementary school听and听one of the schools听we went to was听one听my mum taught at,听which was in Westmount.听
[21:30]听That was an听[laughs]听out, out,听that was like an out-of-body experience. You know, [sighs]听the kids,听uh, many of them were not nice, they were not nice, a听lot of them were not nice. They听just,听they did not have鈥攖he only people that they saw that look like us were maids and butlers and, and I kid you not.听鈥楥ause听I鈥攕ome听of them听who were, you know, nice enough to kind of, uh,听hold out their hands,听I,听I听went to some of their houses, and听they听actually听did have maids and butlers,听Black maids and butlers, and that鈥檚,听that.听听
[21:57]听and The听Jeffersons听was basically the extent of their knowledge in terms of,听like,听knowing someone like that.听Um, so,听that was tough,听and I remember,听um, you know,听um,听since听my mum听taught at the school, so very often we would actually stay after school听鈥榗ause听she听was听finishing some听of听her听stuff for school and so on and so forth. So,听we took some time, we took, uh,听piano lessons and things of that, that听nature. We鈥檇 stay at school, get听our听homework done.听听
22:21听Sheetal:听Through Ron鈥檚 mother, he and his sister had a well-rounded education, but it was not easy in Montreal, and their family had to endure their share of micro aggressions and larger threats.听
22:33听Ron:听Um, and there were times where,听like,听I even remember my,听my sisters actually had to run and lock themselves鈥斺�榗ause听my mom used to keep her car door open, it was a yellow Volkswagen Beetle and,听[laughs] clutch, thank you very much.听She,听she knew how to work her clutch.听And, um,听so she听used听to keep her car open in the days and I remember there听were,听there鈥檚 a couple times where they had to听actually run听and,听and听actually locked听themselves into my mom鈥檚 car听
[23:00]听鈥榗ause听kids were chasing after听her听and then she鈥檇 tell somebody,听鈥済o听get my brother鈥澨齥ind of听a听thing.听
听
Second Half听
00:00 Ron:听So听I鈥檇 come听and听kind of save her from the angry听mobs听kind of thing.听So听we, so听we,听we went through that. We,听we went through that and,听you know,听sadly, be-,听you know,听鈥榗ause听there were听racial issues back then and, um,听but, you know,听um,听here we are. So,听we鈥檝e,听so we,听we,听we鈥檝e seen some things. Um,听add it听to the fact that, uh,听my mom also was a school principal, eventually went on to be a school principal,听and her French was,听
[00:26]听鈥榗ause听she never learned it at school, obviously,听she听only started听learning听when she got here.听And I remember I, I thought she was so brave,听I remember, I听think it must have been in the late 80s,听I believe it was,听when she听actually went,听I think it was Rimouski or Trois-Rivi猫res,听for听a听summer and took herself to learn French. So,听she actually,听uh,听boarded with a French family there, uh,听for a few months to get her French听better,听to learn better French, so,听which was a shock听[laughs].听And there was no English,听
[00:57]听even the movies,听she went to French movies听[indistinct], so she got a lot better in French as a result, you know,听and it,听and it helped her with her with her French, as it were.听听
01:04听Sheetal: Ron鈥檚 parents were heavily involved in the civil rights movement in Montreal,听as were听some of his relatives, including his father,听who completed a PhD and then moved听to the US to contribute听and to teach听there.听Like Beryl,听who was surrounded by notable Black figures,听Ron met听Black听activists, athletes and academics through his parents when he was growing up.听
01:27听Ron:听Both, uh,听both my,听my dad,听and,听and,听a lot of听members of my family also,听were also very much involved in the civil rights struggle, both here in Montreal听and,听um,听and also听in the US. So,听a lot of those historical figures, we,听we鈥檝e听actually met听some of them, you know what I mean?听[Sheetal: Mm-hmm]听Which was,听which was quite鈥攁nd听some of them,听they听have been to our house. And,听you know, people听that,听people听will say, 鈥渨ho is this?鈥澨鼳nd like,听like Patrice听Muhleman听[sp?],听uh,听you know,听Miriam听Mekeba听and her husband,听Stokely Carmichael, and听people like that, uh,
[02:00]听so听we听got to meet them. And I鈥檝e even, even听met听John Carlos. Uh, but听I don鈥檛 know, do you know who John Carlos is?听
02:05听Sheetal:听I听don鈥檛.听
02:07听Ron:听Okay.听Have you ever, uh, you may have seen it in the, it听was听the听68 Olympics. There were two American runners that came gold and silver and then raised their fists in the听Black power symbol听[Sheetal: Yeah]听and听Black love. Number one was Tommie Smith,听[Sheetal: Right]听he got the gold medal. Um, and alongside him with his teammate, uh,听John Carlos, who got the silver听[Sheetal: Oh]. They did that, they got stripped off听their medals,听and were basically designated persona non grata in the US.听听
[02:37]听And,听he couldn鈥檛 even imagine,听he听got听silver medal in the Olympics in听100-meter听run, couldn鈥檛 even get a job as a gym teacher听[Sheetal: Hmm]听in the US听as a result, getting blackballed for that. He ended up coming to Montreal, actually, at听one point,听he played for,听a bit for the Alouettes, and during that time frame, that鈥檚 when he,听he met my parents and my dad and so on听and听so forth.听
[02:56]听So,听you know,听uh,听you know,听my dad听especially also very much involved,听like听I said,听the听civil rights and so on and so forth. And, uh,听some of my,听uh, relatives here as well,听um,听very much involved in that as well. And,听you may have heard of the,听the occupation听of,听uh, in Con- at听Concordia, in听the computer room. So,听you know, uh,听my dad was there, my uncle was,听his,听my uncle, his brother was there too as well,听and听a number of听the people,听so,听you know,听very much one of those things that were always part of our family and just,听you just knew.听听
[03:38]听Um, so we used to spend a lot of time in the US as well,听'cause听we听spent听time with him down there.听And, um,听so you,听you got to see another side from Canada.听Uh,听you know,听you got to see the US,听what was going on down there,听as well.听And,听you know, and it was听a听very different context, because, um,听here,听for the most part,听they鈥檇听only say things about you听once you left听the room. There,听it听was very in your face, the racism was very much, they were not shy,听
[03:56]听you know,听to the point where like,听you know,听we,听we,听there,听when we used to drive, we鈥檇 kind of听dri-听try and drive during the day,听and听not drive at night,听when we听went to the听States.听听Even when you go any-听any farther South than,听let鈥檚 say,听Maryland, they would, like,听you know, you鈥檙e driving the day and you pull over听at night. If听you鈥檝e听gotta听go through like Georgia and stuff like that,听forget it, that鈥檚 not听happening, not in,听not after sundown,听鈥榗ause,听you know,听there was,听all kinds of things happened and so on and so forth.听And,听we know people听who鈥檝e听that鈥檚 happened to听and so on.听
04:25听Sheetal:听You鈥檒l remember that Beryl described the Black community as close-knit, for geographical reasons and because there were not听as听many Black people in Montreal.听Even though Beryl鈥檚 parents weren鈥檛 鈥渁ctivists鈥� they were involved in the Black Community and in helping fellow immigrants.听听
04:43听Beryl:听So, it, that was always close-knit,听and my mother was a very powerful speaker of her own. I mean,听and she, every club she joined,听she became the president. So, um,听she was always involved with something. So,听that鈥檚, that鈥檚 how we got involved as well. And, um, and my father as well,听he was,听he worked on the railroad,听but he became a union man helping听听
[05:09]听underprivileged people. So,听that was, you know,听my life. That鈥檚 how it went,听you听know听.听听
平特五不中 in the Past听
05:29听Sheetal: Each of our interviewees had a unique path to 平特五不中. Beryl described a quota system for Black students at 平特五不中.听But on a day-to-day basis, in the mid-1940s, what that meant was that Beryl didn鈥檛听actually see听very many Black students.听Her community and sense of belonging came from elsewhere.听This is what her routine was like:听
05:50听Beryl:听Well,听I,听I got up and took maybe three buses to get to school,听and I had to walk up a hill to get to 平特五不中,听and took a lunch and, um, and听you know, that鈥檚 the time when it, um,听you know,听Blacks weren鈥檛, uh,听just allowed any old where,听so we always met in groups,听had our lunch together and stuff like that, you know, we weren鈥檛,听
[06:20]听yeah, we weren鈥檛 accepted. It was,听it was sort of,听what, what听can听I听say, subtle,听you,听but you knew it was there, you know. It, it听wasn鈥檛 like America per se and听like I think America,听you knew听Blacks didn鈥檛 go here听or听there;听there were certain places we knew we weren鈥檛 really accepted,听but they didn鈥檛 really come out and say it,听but,听you know,听you could sit there for hours and not be served or something like that.听
[06:48]听But, um, so it was different,听it, it听was听really different听and none of us pushed our way because we knew about it, you know, we all sort of kept together. And that鈥檚 why,听I say,听why I went,听um,听why I听went听听[trails off]听why听I went to the听Black church,听because I met,听you know,听other people,听because at school there was no, um鈥斕�
[07:17]听Well,听you never went to other people鈥檚 houses, you know, like how kids do now.听You鈥檙e,听you,听it, it听wasn鈥檛 done,听it wasn鈥檛 done. So,听you were,听you made your own听friendships听and you went to school and did your stuff and did just,听you know,听you, you听kept your place. You鈥檇 try to get a job, you knew why you didn鈥檛 get it, and things like that in the summer, you know,听stuff like that. So that, that,听that鈥檚 how it was. I mean, it鈥檚 a听bloody听long time and it seem like it hasn鈥檛 changed.听
[07:47]听So,听um,听everybody听[indistinct]听鈥淥h,听it鈥檚听not like that.鈥澨齀 said,听鈥渘o, you know,听it鈥檚, it鈥檚听still there.鈥澨齀 mean,听[Sheetal: Yeah]听maybe not as obvious,听but it鈥檚 still there, you know.听But,听I mean,听like,听we knew it was there,听so we just,听you know, we just kept,听we had our own groups that we kept together and then,听like I said,听at 平特五不中 there was about 6 or 8 of us. There were a couple of guys that were from听South Africa, and I can think听of听a couple from some other places, and听
[08:18]听they kept with us.听But, um鈥攂ecause听that鈥檚 what it was.听听
08:23听Sheetal: I asked Beryl where she would sit in class and what kind of a student she was.听
[08:26]听Beryl:听Well,听you know, I found the classes were so big!听[Sheetal: Yeah]听So huge!听Uh,听I,听it鈥檚 so funny when听I, when this, um, competition stuff was going on,听I had two Jewish guys who were in the same economics class as听me,听and they kept saying to me, 鈥測ou need to come in late, you know, and not go all the way听to the听back.听You need to come in late and walk right up to the front.鈥澨齕Bradley: Make a听commotion!]听听
[08:54]听I said I鈥檓 not doing that听and [the听Jewish guys听said] 鈥測es, you听gotta听promote yourself, you听gotta听do that,鈥澨齕laughs] and so,听because I听used to just kind of always be on time and just get in and sit in my seat, you know听what I mean?听Don鈥檛 make any waves. But anyway,听I听did that a couple of times, and听of course,听the professor called me out and听he听[one of听the听Jewish听guys] said,听鈥淚 told you,听everybody听knows who you are now.鈥澨齕laughs]听So,听it, it,听kind of worked.听But, uh,听no,听I,听I,听we kept to ourselves,听really. I mean, I just, uh,听did my class,听got my,听
[09:24]听you know,听went home,听did my stuff,听and that鈥檚 how I was. I didn鈥檛 live close to the university. I听mean, I听had to take two transportation to get there, so, um,听so that鈥檚 what I did. Walked home most times in, in the springtime more than the winter.听
09:41听Bradley:听And you loved math!听Well you, the subjects听you loved鈥斕�
09:43听Beryl:听Well, I, I, I鈥攜eah,听I听did love math,听I听did听math, I did love math. I didn鈥檛听love writing things,听I听never liked听English听projects and writing stories听because,听I,听it鈥檚 always their opinion. I mean, if you, if they didn鈥檛 think you got the same thing from the same thing you read or what-,听you know,听鈥渨ell that was not the point,鈥澨齱ell, I don鈥檛 know,听I got my own point, you know?听听So,听I always liked math because it鈥檚 a true thing,听2 and听2 is听always 4,听
[10:14]听you can鈥檛 change it. Whereas people give you a point,听a point about sociology or a book you鈥檝e read听or what you听got from听it, you know, so鈥擨听mean, I, you know, I still had听to do it because you had听to have听certain subjects听you had to take, but, um,听yeah.听No, I, but听everything in my life I find was a great experience.听
10:34听Sheetal:听That鈥檚 Bradley again, Beryl鈥檚 son. And by the way, when Beryl refers to a competition, she鈥檚 talking about the Carnival Queen competition, in which she was the first Black Queen in 1949.听But听Beryl's听love of math meant that she actually wanted to be an engineer.听
10:53听Beryl:听Yeah, and I, well, you know, I听knew, I knew听it was hard,听um,听for my par-听for my parents听to get money together,听get听me听this,听to go there, period.听And,听so I didn鈥檛听wanna听fool around, no,听no,听yeah,听yeah.听听
11:09听Bradley:听But mum didn鈥檛 you want to,听didn鈥檛听you say you wanted to be a certain,听you听were, you were听hoping听if听you could have been听a鈥斕�
11:13听Beryl:听Well,听yeah.听I, you know,听at one time I used to say,听鈥淚鈥檇 like to really be an engineer.鈥澨�
11:18听Sheetal:听Ohh.听
11:19听Beryl:听And, you know,听no, women weren鈥檛, no, you鈥檇听just be a teacher听or鈥攜ou听know,听and听I鈥檓 so,听it鈥檚 so weird to me now how life is,听you can,听women can be whatever they want. I mean,听[indistinct]听it鈥檚听taken a long time, but yeah,听there were certain, [noise] certain, uh,听classes you couldn鈥檛 apply for. You,听they听weren鈥檛 going to let you go in there. Because I loved math and I thought,听鈥渙h,听I probably听would be an听engineer or architect or something like that,鈥澨�
[11:50]听but knowing, well, you鈥檒l听be a teacher or听a听social听worker or something like,听you know, that was the deal. Is it like that now?听听
11:56听Sheetal:听And,听I had to admit to Beryl that it听is, in fact, still like that now with low percentages of women in Engineering,听ranging from听about听12听to听22 percent.听As we jump forward in time to the 70s and 80s, I asked Ron听and Professor Piggott听whether there were many Black students and听faculty听at 平特五不中.听
12:20听Ron:听There听were not, there听were not听many. I, uh,听if they, if there were,听you, you鈥檇 know their names. Even in the larger classes, there were not many at all.听In, in听scien-听in the science, yes, because there听just,听there just weren鈥檛 a lot,听th-there, there just weren鈥檛 a lot, um, there were so few. Now,听in the,听in the broader sense, you know,听you, you knew some people, plus if you did other activities, you know, um,听you can get to like some of the other, like the Black Students鈥櫶鼳ssociation.听听
[12:50]听You know,听you knew them from that, plus,听you know,听I was involved in other things outside of 平特五不中 as well. So,听you know,听you,听you,听you know these people from there,听so you do have that connection听already before you even got to 平特五不中. But, uh,听there听weren鈥檛, there weren鈥檛 a whole lot.听听
13:03听Sheetal:听Did听your, did your friends know about, um, your parents鈥櫶齛ctivism and their role in, in the Black community?听
13:13听Ron:听Mm-hmm, yeah. It was something, it听was听one of those things that,听you know, I,听with them I could speak openly of it and so on and so forth. So,听yeah, absolutely.听
13:20听Sheetal:听And,听how听were, how did听they react to that? What were some of听the,听you know, were they supportive?听
13:26听Ron:听Yeah, and they had questions,听鈥榗ause听that was not their reality.听鈥楥ause听when I,听when I think about it, uh,听one was,听he was Polish and the other two were Italian,听so that was not their reality at all.听
13:40听Sheetal: I asked Ron what sort of questions he would get from his peers, and how they would react to his recognition and naming of听racism听
13:50听Ron:听Uh, you know,听they,听they鈥檇 ask,听like,听鈥渙kay,听so, you know, tell us how,听you know, the fact that you鈥斺�澨�榗ause听I talked听to them, like,听about,听you know,听what was going on,听and so,听things听would听happen听and it鈥檚 like, [his friends would say] 鈥渨ell, but that doesn鈥檛 happen to us,鈥澨齦ike,听you know,听so then I鈥檇 say,听鈥渨ell, yes. You know what?听The difference is, is that,听you know,听um,听you鈥檙e not perceived before you听even听hit the door. They can see me coming from a mile away. They,听they don鈥檛 know anything about you, you know what I mean?鈥澨齋o,听um,听but听they鈥檙e,听you know,听they were, they were supportive and,听听
[14:21]听and they got it,听and they got it because they,听they saw some things as well, you know what I mean? So,听they,听they, they weren鈥檛, they weren鈥檛 oblivious, that鈥檚 for sure.听I听mean,听I had,听like I said,听I had some friends,听but I couldn鈥檛 say that kind of,听this is, this is my space and,听and,听and I feel like I belong here,听I couldn鈥檛 say that. I,听I did feel kind of like from,听an outsider a bit. So,听um,听absolutely,听I felt more at home,听even听despite the friends,听I felt more at home outside of 平特五不中, to听be听quite听frank.听
14:50听Sheetal: The idea of feeling at home in a space, or feeling safe in听a听space, will come up repeatedly with our interviewees. And some of what we will hear is hopeful. However, some of what we will hear is听sobering.听Professor Piggott听began in the department of Linguistics and then went on to become the first Black Associate Dean of Arts.听He was the only Associate Dean at 平特五不中 at that time, which makes his accomplishment听all the more听important,听and also听explains why he had so much on his plate.听 At that time, there weren鈥檛 multiple associate deans as there are now.听Note that听some of the听subsequent听audio is a bit patchy in some parts, chalk it up to the side effect of working remotely.听
15:35听Glyne:听Well, when I came, uh, my department was very small. Uh, the Linguistics Department was started I think in 1967, I think? So, uh, so when I came it was just barely six years old.听So, to a large extent, I helped to build the department. I think it is, um, I came, there were, this group of about six of us were鈥攁nd now, you couldn鈥檛 recognize the department, it鈥檚 large now, it鈥檚, uh,听fif- twenty people, or听so.听
听
[16:10]听It was very small [indistinct] [laughs]. So, I introduced, uh, course-听several of the courses that were, that formed the core of the Linguistics program. I started, perhaps stupidly, because you spread yourself too thin sometimes because you鈥檙e con- people convince you that you can do a lot so,听听
[16:33]听so I introduced courses in, in many of the core areas. I,听other people were not as generous with their time听[Sheetal laughs]. I [indistinct] a听great deal of听my time.听
16:48听Sheetal: Do you think that some of that, you know, we, we talk these days about, um, the, the additional labor that Black and racialized professors听have to, to take, and women professors, do you think that was part of it?听
17:00听Glyne:听Of course! And a lot鈥攏ot because, no, some of it I admit I took on willingly. Uh, uh, but I think that, uh, the, some of the extra departmental, uh, responsibilities, that I took on largely, because of the need for a non-white face. And r-remember, at 平特五不中 in 19- 1970s, there, there were not that many Black professors.听
17:35听Sheetal:听[laughs] There still aren鈥檛.听
17:36听Glyne:听And there still aren鈥檛 many Black professors. In听fact听I鈥檝e, sometimes, at one point, I think a few years ago, I thought we had regressed. I听actually said听that I thought we had听actually regressed, because I thought there were more when I came. And in that period out there, mid-70s or so, there were, there were Black faces around, Black professors [audio glitches]听in the听English Department.听
18:09听Sheetal:听Yeah.听
18:11听Glyne:听But [indistinct] they weren鈥檛 replaced [audio glitches]. They, they left and weren鈥檛 replaced, and I, I don鈥檛 know why I spoke up, uh, often about that. I听actually reminded听the, the university of its failings听to actually, to听cultivate a diverse faculty and then, um, every occasion, I, [indistinct] I did.听
18:37听Sheetal:听Yeah.听
18:38听Glyne:听Well, of course. Um, it鈥檚, oh, I think now I can see a little movement, but that鈥檚 largely because of听the, the听larger social context in which we live, uh, largely driven by what happened last year, in 2020.听
18:49听Sheetal:听Yes.听
18:50听Glyne:听Uh, but I, I don鈥檛 know that 平特五不中 [unclear], it鈥檚 a very conservative place. Uh, I personally had a very, I mean, I was, I tried to make myself visible on campus. I did a lot of things, um, I, I was on the Senate, I was, I was Associate Dean of Arts, I chaired听a number of听committees. Um, uh,听听
[19:20]听so I, I did a lot of things at the university, but that took me, that鈥檚 a burden that, uh, you听have to听carry if you are [audio glitches] part of such a small community. And they- the university wants to pretend that, in fact, that it has, uh, a sort of diverse face,听and,听[Sheetal:听Yeah] but it, it really doesn鈥檛, it never did.听听
[19:52]听And, and I, I, of course, I could鈥檝e refused anything, but, um, I thought if I, I didn鈥檛 want the university to, to be this bastion of听whiteness only, so, uh鈥斕�
20:07听Sheetal: How did you, how did you deal with, uh, pushback? You know, when you, when you would speak out about the, the paucity of, of Black faces on campus or, um, the need to diversify. Uh, how did you react to the pushback?听
20:25听Glyne:听Th- well, you know [laughs], there was no pushback, I mean, I was just ignored, maybe. I, the point is the university didn鈥檛 push back. You鈥檒l never, I mean, I worked with a lot of听principals听and they were, and they, they brought smiles and they, they nodded understandingly and, uh, but they did nothing. Uh, uh, I commend them all, but, uh, they did very little, uh, to move, uh, the university听[Sheetal: Right].听听
[21:00]听Uh, but, uh, I had some allies. Uh, s-, um, I had, uh, good friends and some, some, uh, in the White faculty who would support me [noise]. Uh, but the university had a way of dealing with the lack of diversity, by听actually w-, uh, sugar coating it. Uh, there was a鈥� I, I don鈥檛 know if you鈥檙e aware of a requirement, that in the, that听
[21:34]听the federal government had imposed on institutions that got federal money, that they had to provide a report, annually, to, to show, uh, to r-,听on the diversity of the faculty.听[Audio听glitches] Of course, the university would not, uh, would argue that it doesn鈥檛 collect data on, on, by race and [Sheetal:听Yes] such.听听
[21:58]听So, uh, I couldn鈥檛 know, but it would, uh, group all the Asians, and the Blacks, and the Asian South and [indistinct] in just, in one group听and say,听鈥渟ee? We have x number of, uh, racialized faculty.鈥澨鼳nd it, it gives the, uh, an appearance of some, some diversity, and there is some diversity. But the truly, uh, marginalized groups, the Indigenous people and the Blacks,听
[22:25]听they鈥檙e, hmm, clearly not represented, but the university would find ways not to report figures.听听
听
22:33听Sheetal:听We have learned that, in fact, data collection听does occur听at the university with respect to race and gender and ability,听these days,听but not听all of听that information is public. Many departments and faculties, such as the听libraries, have initiatives to collect demographic data based on self-reporting. We鈥檒l link to some of those in the show note.听Stay tuned for part 2 of this series on Black History at 平特五不中 and in Montreal, as we move forward through the years until the present life at 平特五不中.听听听
听
23:25听Sheetal: As always, look to our show notes for additional material, such as timelines, photos, links to archival material and more. Many thanks to our Beryl听Rapier, Bradley Rapier, Professor Emeritus听Glyne听Piggott, Adrienne听Piggott, Ron Williams and Brittany Williams.听
[23:43]听Thank you to鈥疨rofessor Nathalie Cooke, Director of this project at 平特五不中鈥疞ibraries'鈥疪OAAr听team鈥痑nd to Jacquelyn Sundberg Associate Producer.听Our title song听鈥淗appy听Sandbox鈥澨齱as composed by鈥疢ativve鈥痑nd sourced from freesound.org. All composers are listed in our show notes.鈥疘鈥檓 Sheetal听Lodhia, producer for this episode. Thanks for listening!鈥�
What does an assistant curator do? Find out this week as we meet Michelle Macleod, assistant curator at 平特五不中鈥檚 Visual Arts Collection (VAC) and a PhD candidate in Art History. We learn about her love for the city and photographs, her current research on 19th-century illustrated journals, and the benefits of digitization during a pandemic.
A cataloguing librarian with a love for medieval manuscripts, archives, and Star Trek鈥檚 Beverly Crusher. Meet Anna Dysert in this week鈥檚 short episode.
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Credits
Producer: Sheetal Lodhia
Host, Associate听Producer, and Technical Assistance: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Transcription: Labiba Faiza
Guest:
Anna Dysert
Music
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org
End credits: Happy-music by monkeyman535, Sourced from Freesound.org.
Episode 14 - Generations Part 2
馃攰
What has changed since the 1940s for Black students and staff at 平特五不中? In part 2 of the Generations episode, we shift to more contemporary perspectives. We hear mostly from the daughters, Adrienne Piggott and Brittany Willians.听They discuss community, belonging, and safe spaces on campus. The episode also focuses on the fight for equity, and the institutional challenges and obstacles that come with it.
Brittany Williams, Manager, Student Affairs Office, 平特五不中 Faculty of Law.
Note, at the time we spoke with Brittany, she was Acting Associate dean of admissions and recruitment for the Faculty of Law. She started her new position November first, 2021, read more about it here.
Music
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org,
Transitions: Horn lilt 2 by contextcollapse, Sombre Piano by Luckylittleraven, Happy and Groovy by Tyops, all sourced from Freesound.org,
End credits: Happy-music, by monkeyman355,
Full Transcript
5 Generations in 80 years:
Black Perspectives at 平特五不中, from the 1940s to the 2020s
PART 2
听
Glyne 鈥� Glyne Piggott
Ron 鈥� Ron Williams
Adrienne 鈥� Adrienne Piggott
Brittany 鈥� Brittany Williams
Sheetal 鈥� Sheetal Lodhia (interviewer/host)
00:02 Sheetal: Welcome to Voices from the Footnotes, a podcast series presented by the 平特五不中 Librarys鈥� ROAAr team. Each episode we will explore some of the hidden histories at 平特五不中, looking at places, people and artifacts. The library collections are rich and interesting, but this series flows from the silences also present. It is our desire to gather stories and share them. It is our goal is to highlight voices who have often been overlooked in histories and in archives.
[00:34] I am today鈥檚 host, Sheetal Lodhia.
[00:40] Before we begin today鈥檚 episode, we acknowledge that 平特五不中 is situated on the traditional territory of the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst nations. We recognize and respect the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka as the traditional custodians of the lands and waters on which we meet today.
Episode Intro
01:08 Sheetal: Today鈥檚 episode is part 2 of a series on Black history in Montreal and at 平特五不中, from the 1940s through to the 2020s. In our previous episode we heard from Beryl Dickinson-Dash, now Beryl Rapier, who was 平特五不中鈥檚 first Black Carnival Queen. We also introduced you to a pair of fathers and daughters, Professor Emeritus Glyne Piggott and Adrienne Piggott and Ron Williams and Brittany Williams.
[01:37] We haven鈥檛 yet heard much from the daughters, since we鈥檝e gone mostly chronologically, but in this episode, they will take centre stage. We ended the last episode with Professor Piggott describing the university鈥檚 way of dealing with a lack of diversity. We also heard Beryl Rapier, Ron Williams and Professor Piggott touch on themes of community and safe spaces.
[02:05] For the older generations, they found community largely outside 平特五不中, through their parents, through churches and through community activities. And that鈥檚 where we will pick up today.
[02:20] I asked Professor Piggott about his experiences at 平特五不中 in the Arts Building, when he was the Associate Dean, the first Black Associate Dean when there was only a single Associate Dean position.
02:32Glyne: The Faculty of Ar鈥擠awson Hall has a certain, uh, the building has a certain presence on campus. It's, uh, it's attached to the Arts Building. It's a, it, you, and, of course, when you're in there, you do feel, uh, that you're, you're at the heart of the university. So, I enjoyed the four years I was there.
[03:01] Uh, I, I also, because of, uh, I made a lot of changes as a, during that period that helped me to, to actually even develop a sense of belonging in that community because I, I, I pushed a few changes that were embraced and鈥�
03:22 Sheetal: Tell us! Tell me about those changes, please.
03:25Glyne: Well, uh, right now, uh, well, this one, this change actually postdates my time as Associate Dean. But this, uh, multi-track program in the Faculty of Arts, uh, three of us are responsible for that multi-track program I developed it with, uh, Bruce Trigger] who is, uh, who was in the Faculty of, who was in the Department of Anthropology, uh, he鈥檚 unfortunately now no longer with us,
[04:00] And Jim McGilvray, uh, who was in Philosophy Department. The three of us actually designed this new curriculum for the Faculty of Arts. And I, I had always had the sense that, in fact, that our, our education was not, was too focused in [indistinct], too focused on specialization, too focused on training people to do specific things, and too disciplinary oriented.
[04:35] I wanted to give the students a broader education. I thought that the Arts degree should have some more dimension to it and was, it was there at the time, and we, so we, we, we decided to include the possibility of more breadth in the education, and also try to rule out the possibility of too much depth.
[05:06] That, uh, because, uh, the undergraduate degree should be an education, should be a real liberal education. Um, so we tried and, uh, eh, succeeded. We convinced the university to embrace this new model of liberal education and there so, I am pretty proud of that particular legacy.
[05:28] And there, there are a couple of things that I did when I was Associate Dean. Um, uh, s-, was to try to develop a little more outreach to the students who were struggling a bit, uh, because, for various reasons, to try to give them a way to, to continue their education, even though they were having some difficulties.
[05:57] So the students who were鈥攕o what we tried to develop is a way to help students to navigate, uh, instea鈥攂ecause sometimes students, once they're failing at a place like 平特五不中, they think that's the end. But we tried to develop some ways to help students who were鈥攂ut some of the students, of course, were disadvantaged academically because there were disadvantaged [laughs] socially, so we have to,
[06:27] so I, I, I made, I think I'm pretty proud of the effort.
06:25 Sheetal: That policy became known as the Piggott year. It means that students can take a pause in their studies and come back if they need to, for whatever reason. Glyne found purpose and place during his time in the Arts Building. However, for Ron, the one space on campus where he experienced joy and fun was in the Chemistry Building.
06:54 Ron: Uh, strange enough, um, in the s-, uh, weird, in the science building, because they used to have a ping pong table down there. Ah, [laughs] so we, we used to do a lot of hanging out down there with, uh, some of my friends. And some of those people, actually, I still, I'm friends with now, to the point where like, like, last, not, not this past summer, but I guess that would be 2019. We actually met up and, and played golf, uh, in the US, 'cause one of them lives in the US now, and he's got a,
[07:17] he's got a second home down there, so we actually, and the other one lives in Montreal, but we鈥檇 always kept tabs on each other a little bit, but we always kind of kept in touch. But I'm, you know, so, but all from 平特五不中, and another guy that-, and it was like a foursome that we used to hang around with. And, I would tell you that of the foursome three of the four were still very much in touch with. And all, and they're all from the chemistry days. Um, two of them are, one鈥檚 got his PhD in, um, Chemistry.
[07:43] The other two have their Masters in, uh, in Chemistry as well. So, I guess it worked [Ron and Sheetal laugh]. And they're all gainfully employed, so.
08:02 Sheetal: Both Ron and Professor Piggott paved the way for their children in many regards. In Adrienne鈥檚 case, as the daughter of a prominent Professor who was also the Associate Dean of Arts, she couldn鈥檛 escape notice.
08:16 Adrienne: There obviously were profs who recognized the name and knew who I was, students less so, but professors, I would often get the question 鈥渁re you Glyne's daughter?鈥� Because I look like him and it's an unusual surname, so obviously people know, make the connection. If they see them, they know I'm his. We look alike.
[08:44]: Um, but I mean, that, that I was more accustomed to because, I mean the, the, the world of sort of post-secondary education is fairly small, so I've been experiencing that from CEGEP. You know, I'd walk into classrooms in CEGEP and people would be asking the same question, you know, 鈥渄o you know Glyne Piggott?鈥� 鈥淵es, he's my father.鈥� Um, that would happen very, very frequently. So, I was, also, you know,
[09:10] a number of people on campus had watched me grow up, so they already knew who I was just from the mere fact that I had been there [laughs softly] from before I was a student. They are, they are people who were, you know, associate provosts who babysat me as a kid, who braided my hair, so [Sheetal laughs] I was not a stranger to campus [laughs].
09:30 Sheetal: And, with some time, the opposite happened.
09:32 Glyne: Did she now tell you that I鈥檝e become her, herdad. "Oh, There鈥檚 Adrienne鈥檚 dad.鈥� [Sheetal: Yes [laughs]] 鈥淭here he is.鈥�
09:42 Sheetal: [laughs] So the tables have turned.
09:44 Glyne: I knew it would, and, uh, I remember introducing her to Heather Munro Bloom uh, when she was, uh, in her final days. A-Adrienne had just come to 平特五不中, and I, I introduced her, but I told her that, uh, it won't be long before [noise] I'll be known as Adrienne's dad, and it came true.
10:10 Sheetal: Adrienne, in fact, comes from a long line of 平特五不中ians
10:14 Adrienne: My mother did her master鈥檚 in, uh, what was then called Library Science, it鈥檚 now called Information Science, and she did work, um, as well, uh, in the library school for a number of years. Um, so yes, literally my entire family [both laugh].
[10:33] No one escapes, m-my niece is currently at 平特五不中 finishing her degree, she鈥檚 in her final year.
10:40 Sheetal: How comfortable are you speaking about, um, difficulties Black students and staff experience on campus? You're on this com- committee, you're the chair of this committee.
10:50Adrienne: Well, I mean, for myself, one of the reasons I, I'm, I've taken on this role is that I, I probably feel more comfortable than most. There's the cloak of legacy, first of all, that I'm sort of shielded by, um, being my father鈥檚 daughter is definitely a coat of armor that I get to wear that many people don't. My father was an Associate Dean, he was Chair of his department for many years, he's well regarded and well respected at the university and that does offer me a measure of protection.
[11:21] My mother, um, was president of the Women's Alumni Association. She had a stellar reputation on campus and that's an added layer of protection. It also helped tremendously that my current director is immensely supportive of equity work and values the work that I do within his team in what I call my day job and then, because I do good work for him in that regard, he's extremely supportive of, uh, giving me the room I need to do the equity work, uh, that I also do for the university.
[11:55] So, I feel a measure of safety that I think a lot of people don't feel. Um, and I also think there's an advantage in that it's not my paid work at the university, so I can't get fired for what I do on the equity front. I'm not hired to do that work. I do it as a service to community that I think is important, that I value. Um, I also have institutional knowledge that I think is, uh, important to bring to these discussions.
[12:24] Um, while I often joke that I, you know, that I was raised on campus, it's also true. I've seen the evolution, or lack thereof, uh, over these 40, what, how old am I? 48. So, you know, I've recognized it for th- most of my life, um, because I, I would come to campus almost every day as a child, um, so I witnessed, uh, both the work that my parents tried to do, because my father chaired the committee that I now chair,
[12:56] um, he was also a harassment assessor, which I also was at one point. Um, I went to camp at 平特五不中, I, I just, I've, I've lived in the institution, and I think that's useful to bring into these discussions because I do have a fairly clear sense of, of what has happened, what's been tried, how it's been received, um, the steps forward and the steps back that the university has taken.
[13:26] So, um, I'm lucky that I have, uh, also a breadth [audio glitches] of sounding boards, if you will, because having had my entire family be 平特五不中ians and have a, [audio glitches] they've had a variety of their own experiences, so, um, my family still has traditional Sunday dinner, so on Sundays everyone gathers around the table, and that was an opportunity to actually bring issues to the table and have those discussions with
[13:56] my younger niece who's, you know, what, 23 now and my father who's going to be 80 next year, and all of us at the table, presenting sort of our perspective on the various issues. So, not only do I have sort of th-the, the protection of the mantle of legacy, which is an important thing at 平特五不中, but I also have that diversity of perspectives available to me at any moment because my entire family is 平特五不中ian.
14:25 Sheetal: with this coat of armour, or mantle of legacy, campus was a different experience for Adrienne than it was for Ron, or Beryl or even for Professor Piggott.
14:38 Adrienne: Well, obviously, having sort of two, [audio glitches] not to use the overword- used [overused] word, but intellectuals as parents. My first impressions as a child, as I came with the curiosity of a child, 平特五不中 was a fascinating place to me as a child. Um, and because, again, my parents were who they were, I was allowed to roam. I explored a lot while I was there. I would, you know, just disappear into the, the stacks in the university or I would, you know, explore labs, I, I ran around campus, like a kid.
[15:11] Um, It, it, it did strike me that we were unusual, but we had always been unusual, as a family. We lived in spaces where we were unusual, so it didn't necessarily click in my head as a little kid that this was odd, because being odd was normal. I went to private schools my whole life, where, you know, I was one of, you know, less than
[15:41] less than a dozen kids who were k-, uh, children of Black families or, um, I navigated spaces where my experience was always unusual, so I didn't necessarily understand why that was not okay and why that was a problem when I was very small. But I was allowed to ask questions, certainly, about it. Like, where are the other kids? Where the other profs who look like you? Where are the other people who look like us?
[16:08] Um, and, my parents were always honest, but also careful, because I think they understood that they shouldn't necessarily taint my perspective.
16:19 Sheetal: Yeah, what, what did they say as, what were their answers?
16:23Adrienne: Um, well dad, dad's always been a, my dad is sort of my, my militant, you know, progressive, demonstrating Dad, 'cause Dad always fought for equity for everyone. Um, and so Dad would talk about how yes, it's true that we, there weren't a lot of us, but we're working to change that. Um, he also talked about the historical reasons why that was, so we understood things like segregation, and we understood things like the legacy of slavery
[16:53] and why it was that people of color hadn't necessarily had even access to the, the required steps that would allow you to be in higher education. Um, I understood that my father's experience, in particular, was unusual. My mother came from a wealthier family, so her experience was, you know, in some, in some measure, um, influenced by having those resources. My mother鈥檚 father was wealthy, she had access to university more easily,
[17:23] she had access to all of those things a little more easily, but my father's family was poor, and I mean developing world poor. So, it's not, it was definitely clear to me that his experience was already a, a very, um, a rare thing. Um, and you could see it on people's faces, because people were often surprised that he was who he was and had accomplished what he'd accomplished.
[17:54] And he experienced that very firsthand racism, you know, the porters of 平特五不中 questioning what he was doing in the spaces he occupied. and we talked about those things. Um, but at the same time, having always been the Black child in the white spaces, that was sort of just what the world looked like. You always had to sort of explain why you were where you were,
[18:22] because people didn't understand that it was fine that you were there. Um, and it's only as I got older that it really began to occur to me that this didn't make sense. The Black people I knew were educated and smart and, and, you know, capable, and it's only as, as I aged that I began to understand that there was more to it, there was a deeper reason why we weren't represented. Um, dad also worked on some of the more challenging equity cases across the spectrum,
[18:55] not just for people of color, but, I mean, Dad fought for things like pay equity for, uh, uh, you know, female professors. Um, at the time at 平特五不中, [laughs softly] the argument was made that because families don't depend on women鈥檚 salaries, it was acceptable to pay them less, so dad fought for that. He st-, [audio sounds weird here] he fought for things like, um, stopping the clock for grad students who [unclear] became pregnant because there's just the, you know, the fact of biology, our women carry the babies. It's just the way it goes, if you have a uterus, that's how biology works, and it's not fair that they're penalized,
[19:31] um, on, on the grad clock. So, these are the kinds of things that he took up, but he also always was devoted to the fact that, uh, people of color were essentially always doubly burdened. Whatever the burden was, in addition to, it was always the burden of being racialized. Um, and while we weren't beaten over the head with it as children, we were always, it was never denied when we, when we encountered it, it was always, you know, made clear to us that yes, that thing you're feeling or the thing you're experiencing is real.
20:07 Sheetal: Whereas Adrienne grew up on campus, Brittany 鈥� Ron鈥檚 Daughter 鈥� grew up knowing about 平特五不中, but with a slightly different impression of it.
20:17 Brittany: Um, so yeah, I grew up in, uh, LaSalle, uh, which is, I think, southwest, uh, Montreal. I, I like to call it like a mini Montreal because like Montreal has its different pockets and, um, quite a multicultural city, LaSalle has that as well. Um, and yeah, I loved it. I mean, you know, went to, the only time I really, I mean, I, I ventured out of the city obviously, but, um, went to, um, you know, elementary school, um,
[20:48] and high school in LaSalle and then, you know, Verdun, which is right next to it, um, and really enjoyed, um, really enjoyed living there. I, I always said, I was like, 鈥淚'm gonna buy a house here one day,鈥� but I don't know if I'll ever buy a house, so, [laughs] so, you know, I don't know if that's in the plan. But, um, yeah, I grew up in, you know, a huge family. Um, we all lived, at one point my, like, mother鈥檚 side of the family all lived on the same street. Um, so like, my grandmother,
[21:17] like, when I was born, we lived above my grandmother, um, and then, like, moved, and I thought we were going somewhere far, we literally moved down the street, our postal code changed by one number. Um, and then my aunt moved above us. And then, you know, when my, another aunt, like, got married, she moved two streets up which was like, ouh. Um, you know, but yeah, I grew up around family, connecting with a bunch of people. Um, uh, like even our church was like
[21:46] in Verdun, which was right next to LaSalle. So, I grew up in that, kind of, little pocket, um, and had friends at, at all four corners of the city
21:55 Sheetal: And do you find that鈥�where did, where did all of your friends and family end up? Did they all, um, what was the reputation of 平特五不中 among your family [Brittany: Mm-hmm] and, and where did some of the others end up?
22:08 Brittany: Yeah. Um, so yeah, my dad went to 平特五不中. He did a degree in BioChem. Um, I think he did a minor in something, and he'll probably kill me for not remembering, but definitely BioChem. Um, and so yeah, 平特五不中 was always, um, kind of on that, um, on my radar as a school that I knew. Um, and then, kind of, you know, going through things, you know, at school we had students, um, like student teachers from Mcgill's
[22:36] Education faculty and stuff like that, so, I always knew 平特五不中 to be like a reputable school that, I don't know if I ever like, you know, dreamt, I don't think I was eversomeone who like dreamt of going to X school. I was, I was more like looking past school to, like, what I was going to do. Um, but I think maybe, maybe at one point I felt like 平特五不中 was too fancy for me. Um, I mean, but here, I, it's obviously not, here I am now. Um, but yeah.
23:11 Sheetal: Did you find that, that you were a little bit of a mentor too because you were a Montrealer? And I imagine, I mean, I know that so many students come from outside of Montreal, [Brittany: Mm-hmm] so you had the insider knowledge.
23:23 Brittany: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, yeah, I think a fair amount of people going, or, at 平特五不中 Law, are from Montreal. Um, but yeah, there are people from all over the place. [Mumbles] I think, I remember introducing myself in a couple of different spaces and saying, like, 鈥渋f you need tips on poutine in this city, I'm your girl.鈥� Um, and that was like my go-to, um, you know took many, uh, uh non-Montrealers through Poutine Week, um, in every year of, [laughs] uh,
[23:53] of my degree. Um, but yeah, being connected to the city already was really cool to then, like, you know, you know, get to show people like, hey, just because you can't walk there from, you know, Milton Park, uh, to like school or whatever, doesn't mean there are not other spaces in this city that are worth discovering. Um, and so it was really, it was really great to be able to connect those two things and share my, you know, my love of my city with the people who I was, you know, sitting in class with every day.
24:25 Sheetal: Both Brittany and Adrienne talk about the rarity of Black students in their programs and overall on campus.
24:31 Brittany: So, um, I, I can't give you exact numbers. Maybe I can look it up quickly, but, um, in terms of like gender, um, split, I think, like, on like the traditional gender lines, um, I believe that there are more female-identified, um, people than there are male-identified. Um, but of course, you know we're, you know, we know and are learning more about, like, gender and things like that, so that is
[25:00] a much wider spectrum then, then we know. Um, and then, you know, racialized people, um, make up, I am just like spit balling, but I, for sure, I think less than, less than 40%, probably less than 25%, but don't completely quote me on that. Um, and, uh, I mean, it, I would say the diversity of the class comes most from
[25:30] like the diversity of experience. Um, and you know, kind of where people come from and, and what their backgrounds are before entering law school. I mean, not every person who comes through 平特五不中鈥檚 doors as a student is going to end up being a lawyer in a big firm somewhere, but we want to make sure that every person is given an opportunity, um, to be able to take, you know, three to four, five years, um, to, to be able to, you know, like, leave with a, with a law degree and do something with that.
[26:01] And so, I think it's our, you know, our duty to ensure that we're never, we never stop trying to increase the diversity of, of those classes. Um, I mean, it was interesting for me because I didn't have any, you know, other than the high school average program, didn't have a lot of experiences, or didn't have a lot of experience or knowledge about what law school is going to be like. And so, coming in, I didn't know anyone, um and, I mean, you know, like I said, I was treating it as a means to an end, so I didn't really intend on knowing anyone [laughs] very well or,
[26:34] or, you know, kind of being involved in any particular way.But I think, I remember the first day, like our, like, Welcome Day, which was like August 30th and, like, for context, I had gotten in off the waitlist, and so, I had gotten in like 12 days before this date.
[26:56] Um, and so yeah, the first day I remember I got there kind of early, um, and you were kind of, like, they gave you a name tag, and you were kind of like waiting for people to trickle in for like the day to start. And I remember sitting there being like I'm looking for other Black people at this time, 鈥榗ause I was like, I feel like we can, there will be, you know, a relationship that can be formed on some basis there. So, every person that walked in I was like, um, 鈥淗mm, okay. Hmm, okay. Hmm, okay.鈥� Um, there wasn't, there wasn't many, [laughs] but
[27:25] on that first day, I like met another Black student and then, like, uh, they had connected with two other students, and so the four of us were kind of like a pack for the first couple of weeks. Um, and then, the, kind of like, um, like, [frustrated sigh] d茅clencheur, 茅l茅ment d茅clencheur of me getting connected with, like, a ton of different spaces was clubs day, which I think was in our second week and it's like, the, you know, the atrium at the faculty, which is not a giant space
[27:57] it's just like full of tables, with people soliciting you to join their clubs, and I just like put my name down at a bunch of different spaces. And so, at that point I was able to get connected with like upper years, with whom I shared something so there was, like, you know, the Black Law Students鈥� Association that I joined, the Christian Law Students鈥� Association that I joined. There must have been a couple, like, there must have been a ton of other things or whatever, and it was through that, that I kind of started to find my people, started to find my place, and realized that my place was, like,
[28:27] everywhere, 'cause there were so many things to be involved in. I was like, I, well, I need to do them all. Um, and so, yeah, I ended up, like, finding some of my closest friends, um, in all of these different spaces.
听
28:40 Adrienne: The difference for me was that I was in a field where there weren't many people of colour, um, and there weren鈥檛 many, many women of colour. I would get asked if I was lost, I would have course, I would have course numbers repeated to me as though I must not have understood that that was where I was [laughs] supposed to be. Um, you know, there was always this sort of surprise when I was like 鈥測eah, no I'm, I'm not confused, this is what I'm here to do.鈥�
29:02 Sheetal: Um, but how many, how many racialized students in your classes? Was it a handful? Was it like, you know, one hand counting? Or鈥�
29:11Adrienne: Oh yeah, one hand counting easily. And then when you want to reduce it to women, [Sheetal: Just you] two?
29:17Sheetal: Yeah, okay.
29:19 Adrienne: Yeah. Maybe one other? I'm not even sure if one other. Me, often [laughs] Um, it, it's the kind of thing where you, you notice it and you try not to notice it, um, especially in those spaces, because there's such a desire to, to make you feel that you haven't earned your spot. So, you, you see it, but you try to sort of set it aside.
29:53 Sheetal: Yeah. And, you know, would your classmates, when you had group projects and whatever, would they take your opinions? Would they鈥�
30:01 Adrienne: Well, the, I think one of the, one of the advantages 鈥� sounds terrible when you say it like that 鈥� was that I'm really smart, so most of the time it was, the bigger issue was people sort of stepping back and just letting me do the work, being like 鈥渨ell, you can do it.鈥� So, group projects were more of me trying to coerce people into doing work, because they were like 鈥渨ell, if we don't do it, because she wants the grade, she'll do it鈥�, which is true.
[30:38] My nieces tell me that now, you know, my, my younger niece tells me the same thing. She's really bright, she goes through the same thing of people just sort of, knowing that if they coast, she wants a good grade, so she'll do the work
[30:52] Even when I went back to do my, my certificate in translation years later, it was the same, There were very few racialized people, there were a handful of us. Um, most of the racialized people in my class were arguably the brightest people in the classes, and we ended up not only called on the most in lectures, but also doing most of the work.
31:15Sheetal: Yeah. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Hmm. How did you, I mean, because your experience is so radically different from many Black students who come to campus, you had already established, let's say, safe spaces, you know, your, your dad's office could be a safe space, your, your mom's office could be a safe space. Uh, did you have a sense that the campus was yours in a way that other students didn't?
31:46 Adrienne: Absolutely, and that was something that I've always recognized, that my 平特五不中 experience will always be vastly different from the 平特五不中 experiences of the people who look like me. Um, it鈥檚 not so much that I don't know or understand, or even see, the things that other people around me are experiencing, but it's just, it, it is impossible for me to experience them in the same way. I'm, I'm too recognizable,
[32:18] I'm too well known, I know the campus too well and the campus knows me too well. Um, you know, when I, even when I was interviewed for my job, I walked into that interview and the people who were supposedly on the other side of the table hugged me [Sheetal laughs] [laughs]. My experience is never going to mirror anyone else's, you know it's just not, not possible. So, I always keep that in mind, but I genui- genuinely believe that that privilege comes
[32:55] with huge responsibilities. My, my campus experience as a student, as staff, um, as an advocate, as, you know, chairing the subcommittee, as an ally to everyone that I can be an ally to, I always hold that understanding, that I have a position of privilege that most people who look like me don't have.
[33:30] There's also, I think, unfortunately, because our numbers are low, there's the problem of visibility [Sheetal: Yeah]. We are highly visible because we are so few [Sheetal: Yeah], um, and this is a problem that affects not only, you know, those of us who are sort of vocal and active and outspoken on campus, but it affects the quiet, unassuming students as well. Um, we've had students who report that they'll miss a class for, you know,
[33:57] will miss one lecture for a reason, and then they'll, they'll go to see the prof at the next lecture to ask a question, and the prof will make a comment like 鈥渋f you didn't skip class all the time, you wouldn't have these issues.鈥� And they'll be just, you know, dumb struck because they think 鈥淚've only ever missed one lecture鈥�, but they're noticed when they missed that lecture [Sheetal: Yeah] because there are only two Black people in that class, whereas if a White student misses a lecture, well there's 300 other Bl- White kids in that class,
[34:29] so the student, the, the prof is not gonna notice. And they'll come, they'll come to us and say 鈥淚 don't even know what to do with that. I, I mean, it seems pointless to argue that I don't skip class because there's no way to win that argument with鈥�
34:45 Sheetal: Without like an attendance call or something.
34:48 Adrienne: Exactly!
39:49 Sheetal: Yeah.
39:50 Adrienne: So, it just sounds like I'm, I'm whining, or complaining when I have no mechanism to, to, to demonstrate that I attend all my lectures. But, it's that, the numbers being so low creates that s-, that, that, that impression that every time you speak, every time you don't speak, every time you do anything, someone is going to notice.
35:11 Sheetal: Brittany shares a similar sentiment about responsibility, but she also describes the burden of being a 鈥渞epresentative鈥� member of your community.
35:26 Brittany: Yeah, Black, Black, um, women, um, and like, women across the board, whatever our, um, we hold a lot. Um, and we are expected to do a lot without it being, you know, explicitly said. Um, and, you know, whether it is like outright, you need to do this, or like, and I, like, no one, no one else is going to do this, and so there is an expectation that someone is going to have to pick up the slack. Um, I think of, yeah, there's a, there's a lot there.
[35:58] Um, and I, I definitely don't take for granted the space that I'm in and the, like, um, the places that I have been able to be, and I know that I'm only here because of other Black, um, cis and trans women who have, like, paved the way for all of the spaces I'm able to be in. But yeah, it, it, it is, it is a lot to, like, you know, want to be human, want to be flawed, want to, you know, be able to just, like,
[36:59] experience a thing, but having the understanding that, like, oh, people are watching, people are looking,you know. And unfortunately, there are people who will write off communities or write off, you know, squads of people because of something I may do or not do.
[36:44] Um, it's really interesting being a Black woman making decisions about admissions, um, because, I, you know, I have, I have like seen and experienced difficulties in the law school, um, context, um, uh, a lot of which came from, you know, peers of mine, who, you know, whomever let, you know, whomever, um, you know, said 鈥測eah, admit鈥� on their paper, like,
[37:16] they were in my space, you know, and so鈥攊t鈥檚 not to say that, I mean, I'm not like not going to admit any white people [laughs] or like non-Black people, but like, it's a, it's a, it's interesting being in this space of, like, having it be such a, still a very clear memory of, you know, the like, like, ra-, like, you know racist experiences that I've had from people who, whose you know, um, uh, applications passed across, yeah, pass across the same desk that I,
[37:45] you know, desk, you know, in quotations, 鈥淚 work at鈥� now. Um, and so yeah, it feels very important, very burdensome, very, um, yeah, it's important to, like, honor the space that I'm in, and also ensure that I'm, you know, creating a cohort that, um, is diverse in all of the ways, um, you know that is not only made up of one kind of person.
[38:12] Um, yeah, it's, it, it is, it's a lot. It's, and I, I know it's, I know it's important, um, and so constantly, you know, I mean, giving myself grace to say that there's no way for me to know exactly how every person is going to fare, or what they're going to do in the classroom, you know, if I do let them in. Um, but yeah, being intentional about the fact that like yeah, as you know,
[38:44] the admissions office is creating a cohort, is creating a group of people who are going to be working with each other and working with others in the, like, you know, in the legal profession and beyond, um, who will have, you know, 平特五不中 stamped on their CV or on their, um, on their diploma and, and just like yeah, giving, giving honor and space to that and, and doing my best to, to make as good of a decision as is possible.
Positive Changes
39:26 Sheetal: When we step back, we can see that between Professor Piggott鈥檚 time and Brittany鈥檚 time at 平特五不中 鈥� that's from the 1970s until now 鈥� there have been some positive changes, many of which were in fact implemented by Professor Piggott. I asked Adrienne whether she has noted any positive changes herself.
39:47 Adrienne: It's a difficult question because, um, [pause] it's, 平特五不中 doesn't really make progress. I know it sounds terrible to say, but it doesn't. Um, so as an example, when I was much younger, there were more Black professors. There are fewer Black professors now. They're trying to change that obviously with the new hires,
[40:14] um, but yeah, they, those, [laughs] that you saw more Black folks in actual tenure stream positions when, when I was a kid than you do now, um鈥�some of them went onto, you know, potentially greener pastures, um, some of them retired. 平特五不中 is not an easy space [Sheetal: It鈥檚 not], it is systemically racist, and people get tired of that, [Sheetal: Yeah] understandably [Sheetal: Yeah]. It's a difficult place to thrive, yeah?
[40:52]So, I understand that completely. Um, I, I, but I, what I can say, for example, is, um, I think one of the huge advantages I see are positions like the equity positions that have been created and certain people who've been hired, who are holding their ground, that鈥檚 really been one of the huge improvements I've seen. When I think of a person like Shanice, who is undaunted and who refuses to be silenced or put in acorner, that's a huge, huge improvement. She has changed, she has single handedly changed the landscape of 平特五不中, um鈥�
41:38 Sheetal: I know, she brought about Black History Month, like [laughs]鈥�
41:42 Adrienne: And so many other things [Sheetal: Yeah]. I mean, she's just been a powerhouse. It's, it's been amazing. Um, and, so that is definitely a, a hugely positive change that I've seen.
41:52 Sheetal: The Shanice Adrienne is speaking of is Shanice Yarde, Senior Advisor Anti-racism and Equity,
41:59 Adrienne: Um, but almost like the pendulum swinging, there's this sense that she has also motivated the university to try and claw back the power that she's gaining. And when I say that, I look at things, for example, like,the difficulties we are having in, um, in, in mobilizing the eq-, the big equity committee, as an example. So, there's a, a project in the works now to change the format so that the equity chairs no longer get to participate in the actual equity committee. Um, so the equity committee will be held by the chair, the appointees from the various, uh, units, and
[42:50] only one or two equity subcommittee chairs are- will, will be allowed to attend the actual meetings. So, like there's always a sense that as we try to step forward, the university claws back. You can think of things like the James 平特五不中 statue being installed with a celebration that was held in full period costume, with no acknowledgement of just how vile something like that truly is,
[43:21] how offensive something like that is. Um, so, I think what I see in terms of positive change is the students are more mobilized and more vocal. I love seeing that, there's, there's a sense that students are recognizing the power they have, which I find absolutely gorgeous. Um, and I think thatpeople are recognizing that they can bring change through that movement, through the students
[43:50] being willing to champion ideas and, and, and, um, bring forward causes, I think that's important. Um, I think there, there are more and more staff members who are willing to take risks, to vocalize, to verbalize problems that we see, and I think that's really important. Um, so those things are hugely positive. Uh, definitely, obviously with, with the last 18 months and what's happened since George Floyd, things are moving.
[44:19] Um, I'm, I'm a little nervous, I'm a little worried, but things are moving. I'm a lot nervous and I'm very worried, but things are moving. Um, having the, creation of the, of the caucus, the creation of the Black, um, Alumni Association, these are hugely positive things. But they're large鈥� having Black Grad, Black Grad is a fantastic accomplishment. Um, even the little micro, incremental change we made to,
[44:51] uh, um, course evaluations, where at least there's a mechanism to try to recognize how discrimination is impacting, uh, tenure and promotion for, for teaching staff, also really, really beneficial. Um, where I, I have concerns is there's an unwillingness to recognize the ways in which the institution is foundationally flawed, the things that need to change at its core to create real equity.
[45:21] Um, when we, when I met with, uh, university advancement on, uh, on fundraising for the first Black Grad. In the meeting I had, there was first sort of confusion as to why I thought we needed to have this at all, and one of the reasons there was confusion was,
[45:50] the person I met with said 鈥渄o we even have e-, you know, enough Black students to make this worthwhile?鈥� Like, and I thought, I don't know if you understand how problematic that question is on either end [clicking noise], that you don't know how many Black students we have is a problem, that you think there's a number that is too low to be worthy [laughs] of celebration.
[46:21] And regardless of the number, if we had a lot, it would be worthy of celebration, and if we have a small number, it's worthy of celebration because there's a problem we need to address. But for them it was like, 鈥渨hy would we do this thing? What is the purpose?鈥�
[46:42] When they tried to cut Black History Month out of, out of the bicentennial, was another, you know鈥� in this year, of all years, you would think that in the year where, you know, anti-Blackness is so prominent, we wouldn't actually have to make a case for why鈥� even just the optics, I don't care what your actual reason is, just the optics of attempting to cut Black History Month out of the bicentennial was just not okay, yet we had to fight them.
47:17 Sheetal: Adrienne, more than many, embraces with defiance some of the labels bestowed on Black people, especially, women 鈥� labels such as aggressive and difficult
47:30 Adrienne: I wanted to put that on the name tag. I really wanted to put on my, my, hello my name is difficult and aggressive [both laugh] but, you know, this is where I wear the, sort of, the angry Black woman mantle proudly. I鈥檓, I'm happy to be the uncomfortable presence at that table. I have no problem doing that, and not allowing things to move forward, I'll be obstructionist if I have to be to get things done.
[48:00] Um, I did it as a subcommittee chair, when they left really important things off the agenda because it made people uncomfortable to talk about them. I would just commandeer the meeting. And [both laugh], you, you just, I, I'm not good at letting them get away with nonsense, so.
Created Spaces: Thomson House, Coffee Klatch etc.
48:24 Sheetal: Where Beryl and Ron largely created community off campus, some of the changes that Adrienne mentioned have allowed for Black students to feel welcome in more spaces. Although there is no dedicated space for the Black Students鈥� Association 鈥� yet 鈥� there are events which create moments of, let鈥檚 call it space-making and senses of ownership. I asked Brittany to describe some of those spaces
48:54 Brittany: Um, Thomson House, uh, has been such a, like, pillar of my law degree. So, Thomson House is a, it is like specifically for graduate students, um, you know, and a house that was, that was, I know, donated by a 平特五不中 alum, I believe. Um, and it's a place where鈥擨 mean, they have a restaurant, an amazing restaurant, that I think is subsidized by student fees, so everything is like delicious and also cheap. Uh, it can be an event space, I've gone to many a party, uh, in that space, um, space where people will,
[49:30] Um, I think that they do events for like weddings and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, so it's kind of like a, it's a, a student hub for PGSS students, Postgraduate, um, Society Students. But as law students we got, um, even though we were technically undergraduates, we have it on our fee, so we got to partake, which felt very special. Um, and we used, we used that, that space [laughs] to our advantage, definitely.
[50:00] Uh, a couple of my friends made a joke that our grad gift to, to 平特五不中 Law was going to be a crosswalk between the, [laughs] like, the faculty of 平特五不中 Law and Thomson House. Um, maybe it'll be, you know, something that I leave in a bequest or something from, for years from now.
[50:20] Sheetal: Brittany also mentions the Legal Information Clinic, which is a pro-bono service that 平特五不中 offers to the general public.
50:28 Brittany: The, like, Legal Information Clinic, which has moved around quite a bit. Uh, so when I started there it was in the, um, in the Shatner Building in the, you know, in the SSMU building, um, and that was a space, I mean, because yeah, like, I was, you know, with, uh, six of my colleagues and we spent a whole year working together, but that was definitely a space that I felt really safe and really, and able to like, yeah, uh, be that, you know, whoever I was on that day.
50:54 Sheetal: And the next question is could you walk me through a really happy, joyful experience that you鈥檝e had at, um, you know, on campus?
51:05 Brittany: I think it would be, it was, um, Coffee House that the Black Law Students Association was hosting, and I want to say it was in my third year. Um, yeah, because in my 4th year, a bunch of people graduated and so that made me sad. But in my third year, like, all of my closest friends were there and like not only other Black students, but like students from across the board.
[51:32] I got, um, a bunch of food from like my favorite Caribbean restaurant in LaSalle. Um, she gave us a great deal, uh, Caribbean Paradise, if you ever want to go and try it. Um, and so we had a bunch of foods from, you know, the places that I'm from, but also, you know, we had other people bring in foods as well, from the places that they're from. So we had, you know, from the Caribbean, Africa and things like that. Um, and so we got to like share food with, um, with our peers
[52:02] who had like never experienced these things. You know, like, you know white people calling Jamaican patties spiced meat pastries. Um, so it's definitely different [laughs] for them, you know. Um, and just like amazing music, um, we had a, a killer DJ 鈥� and this was both in second year and third year 鈥� uh, a killer DJ and just, like, uh, like 4 hours of celebrating, like our Blackness, being able to take up space that like you know,
[52:31] we, like, do feel good in, but like being able to be, uh, at least for that time, being, being that majority, um, I think in the, you know, in the years that I was in law school, there was a lot of really difficult things that were happening in Black communities across the world. So, being able to just experience, like, and experience and see like that Black joy. Um, there's a, you know, one of the pictures I was talking about is a picture of me with like a tin full of, of, um,
[53:01] pholourie balls which are like Trinidadian, they are these like little, like, dough, spiced ball, they鈥檙e delicious. And I have a tray and I think with my head is thrown back and I'm like either singing or yelling, I couldn't remember [laughs]. Um, but I, I would like very much embody that space, where I just felt like super, like, free, just like vibing on, on that, like, connecting with other people like me but also connecting, um, those not like me to like the, like,
[53:30] spaces and places that I am from and that my colleagues are from. Yeah, that was like, just like such a special and fun, um, and fun time.
Hopes going forward: Conclusion
53:43 Sheetal: Many would argue that 2020 was a watershed moment for a larger understanding of Black History and White privilege. And so, institutions like universities are faced with the opportunity to make important changes. We have heard about a certain kind of progress from our guests, and we鈥檝e also heard them describe what feels like regression or roadblocks. Going forward, how do we retain Black staff and students, and how do we make campus a space for everyone to thrive?
54:15 Brittany: Yeah, I mean, yeah, what a, what a question. Um, it鈥檚 interesting that it's always put on people of color to figure it out [indistinct] like no, no, no, no, no. I told you what the problem was. I cannot do this by myself. I was like, there is a system that's working here that needs to be dismantled and I don't have all the tools, so. Um, but I think, I mean above all else, there needs to be like a, a commitment to listen, um, to like,
[54:46] you know, racialized people across the board. It doesn't matter if they have a PhD after their name or whether they, like, came to one, you know, class and audit, or whatever, like those experiences are all valid and so it's really important to be able to, um, get that wide range of, of opinions. And I think you know, in terms of like action plan to address, specifically around anti-Black racism, um, I think, uh, a good work was done to be able to
[55:16] get that, would that, that vastness of, of opinions, but yeah, listening for sure. And it just needs to be, on top of listening, a commitment to, like, unlearn. Um, and to kind of enter a process, um, where there are no expectations of, like, how things are supposed to go or what the, you know, end result is going to be. Obviously, like you want to,
[55:46] um, you know, if you're in admin or whatever, want to create a space, want to create a school, um, want to create like, you know, a, a life for the campus that is, um, inclusive across the board, uh, and it鈥檚 constantly committed to inclusion. But there can't be a like, 鈥渨ell we're going to have X, and we鈥檙e going to have Y,鈥� especially coming from, you know, the people at the top. There needs to be that listening, um, and that commitment to just continue to do the work.
[56:15] Um, it's really easy to say, like, 鈥渉ey, we're going to commit to hiring X amount of professors and letting in X amount of racialized students.鈥� But, like if you don't change the spaces that they're in, they're not going to stay, or at the [laughs] very least, they鈥檙e not going to have a great time. Um, and so, yeah, that, just that commitment to say like we're going to do this work and we're going to continue to do this work, we're going to, you know, admit when we were wrong. And it's not like, I think there's like a,
[56:45]a misconception that like, all people, all people, um, want people who are like pushing, um, or championing, you know, equity and equality. All we want is for people to you know, ad-, you know, say like, OK, we did this wrong or whatever and, and be able to point the finger and be like 鈥渙h look, no you did this鈥� [indistinct]. No, like there's a reason why we're in these spaces, we want to stay in these spaces, we also want to create a better space than when we left it. Um, and so it's not about
[57:15] saying, like, 鈥渨ell, you need to do better,鈥� and just finger wagging. It's about like, yes, you need to do better and, um, we, we鈥檙e saying that because we want this space, we want this space to be better for people like us who are coming through the door. Um, and so yeah, they're just, you know, it, yeah, in terms of like, you know, what 平特五不中 can do, um, it is, it is that listening and just like being willing to try different things, and being willing to, like, feel uncomfortable.
[57:48] Um, and to be able to like get new results because you're not going to get new results using the same kinds of tactics. Um, but yeah, I mean I, the work is starting, the work is being, is being done and it just needs to be a contin- like, there is no end goal when you're working towards equity and equality, like it is a, it is a journey, um, without a destination. Um, but it means you're learning along the way and that, like is not, that it is incredibly, um, incredibly valuable.
58:20 Adrienne: And, you know, regularly, people who've been through the subcommittee with me, who've worked with me on various things ask me, 鈥渨hy do you stay? Why do you stay, Adrienne? Why do you stay?鈥�
58:30Sheetal: I was gonna ask you that, but I know you've been [Adrienne laughs] asked that a lot [both laugh].
58:40 Adrienne: 鈥淲hy do you stay?鈥� [Sheetal laughs] I stay for two reasons. Reason number one is as long as we're a society that's going to value things like having a degree from this place, it matters to me that the people who come here don't leave here damaged. It, it bothers me that so many people who come through our doors
[59:01] leave harmed by their experience, and if I can help them to navigate this space and, and, and survive this place, and somehow leave not broken, I, I feel a responsibility to do that because it's not their fault that the world somehow thinks having a degree from 平特五不中 means more than having a degree from some other place, but the world does it.
[59:35] It, it's just, unfortunately that's the way it is. And, I at least have a measure of insulation from the damage this place can do, and if I can sort of cast that net over a few extra people, I'm happy to do it. The other reason I stay is if we abandon it completely,
[01:00:00] then in some respects they win, there鈥檚 a, they, they get to once again claim that we're not good enough, that we're not strong enough, we鈥檙e not smart enough, we're not capable enough. And it's not true. It's just not true. Um, so, I mean, I stay mostly because I care about people and I care about, I care about people a lot, I care about people a lot.
[01:00:29] It's funny 'cause I often say I don't like people, which is also true, but I care about people a lot [laughs]. And I think, I think we have to do better. And if I can help us do better, that matters to me.
01:01:02 Sheetal: As always, look to our show notes for additional material, such as timelines, photos, links to archival material and more. Many thanks to our Beryl Rapier, Bradley Rapier, Professor Emeritus Glyne Piggott, Adrienne Piggott, Ron Williams and Brittany Williams.
[01:01:20] Thank you to Professor Nathalie Cooke, Director of this project at 平特五不中 Libraries' ROAAr team and to Jacquelyn Sundberg Associate Producer. Our title song 鈥淗appy Sandbox鈥� was composed by Mativve and sourced from freesound.org. All composers are listed in our show notes. I鈥檓 Sheetal Lodhia, producer for this episode. Thanks for listening!
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Episode 15 - Carnival Queens
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This episode we speak with royalty, 平特五不中 royalty to be precise. Step back in time to 1949, 1951 and 1958, as Beryl Rapier, Dorothy Baxter and Rae Tucker Rambally bring us back to mid-century 平特五不中 Winter Carnival days as they relive their experiences with the carnival pageant.
At left: Beryl Dickinson-Dash, 1949 Carnival Queen. Centre: Dorothy Baxter, 1951 Carnival Queen. At Right: Rae Tucker, Carnival Queen 1958, portrait from 平特五不中 Yearbook, 1958.
Explore More:
, a 平特五不中 Library game that unites 平特五不中ians from throughout history in a trivia challenge that will test your wits. Host Max McMartlet and the game itself was inspired by a 平特五不中 Winter Carnival Programme from 1951.
Hear more from Beryl in .
Listen to CBC's The Doc Project by Julia Lipscombe, .
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org,
Transitions: Horn lilt 2 by contextcollapse, Sombre Piano by Luckylittleraven, Happy and Groovy by Tyops, all sourced from Freesound.org,
End credits: Happy-music, by monkeyman355,
Full Transcript
Beryl - Beryl Rapier, n茅e Dickinson-Dash
Bradley Rapier - Beryl's Son, present at her interview
Rae - Rae Tucker Rambally
Dorothy - Dorothy Baxter
Sheetal 鈥� Sheetal Lodhia (interviewer/host)
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Campus Queens
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00:02 Sheetal: Welcome to Voices from the Footnotes, a podcast series presented by the 平特五不中 Libraries鈥� ROAAr team. Each episode, we will explore some of the hidden histories at 平特五不中, looking at places, people and artifacts. The library collections are rich and interesting, but this series flows from the silences also present. It is our desire to gather stories and share them. It is our goal is to highlight voices who have often been overlooked in histories and in archives.
00:35 I am today鈥檚 host, Sheetal Lodhia.
00:40 Before we begin today鈥檚 episode, we acknowledge that 平特五不中 is situated on the traditional territory of the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst nations. We recognize and respect the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka as the traditional custodians of the lands and waters on which we meet today.
01:00 Sheetal: In today鈥檚 episode, we will hear from royalty 鈥� three queens in fact, crowned right here in Montreal at 平特五不中鈥檚 Winter Carnival Gala. The 平特五不中 Carnival first took place in 1948. It became a campus tradition, running for over twenty years. Each year brought competition, pageantry, sports, and community, making headlines on campus and beyond. The reigning queen passed her crown on to her successor, who was nominated by her peers and elected by popular student vote.
01:38 We spoke with three women about their experiences as campus royalty, and their student experiences at 平特五不中. We had the privilege of talking with the 1949 Carnival Queen Beryl Dickinson-Dash, now Beryl Rapier. And we caught up with two others as well 鈥� the 1951 Queen Dorothy Alexander, who was known in her 平特五不中 days as 鈥淒usty Baxter鈥�. Finally, we spoke with the 1958 queen, Rae Tucker, now Rae Rambally. I鈥檒l let them introduce themselves.
02:08 Beryl: And I am Beryl Rapier. What more do you want to know? [laughter] I鈥檓 92 years old, and I live in Las Vegas.
02:20 Dorothy: My name is, now, Dorothy Alexander. When I was Carnival Queen, I was in the second to last year of, uh, the, uh, engineering part of the architectural course, which had to be completed before you got in. So, it was kind of like a, a graduate school.
02:47Rae: My first name is Rae, R-A-E. My family name is Tucker, T-U-C-K-E-R. My m-my name, my married name is Rambally, R-A-M-B-A-L-L-Y. And, I was born in Trinidad. Um, what else do you want to know?
03:31 Sheetal: The first official 平特五不中 Winter Carnival took place in February of 1948, with a full schedule of sporting and social events. Beryl became a sensation the following year. In 1949, she made history as the first Black woman to win a pageant of this kind in North America. There is in fact a great CBC Radio piece on Beryl鈥檚 Carnival Queen experience. We鈥檒l put a link to that in the show notes.
04:00 Sheetal: We spoke with Beryl, Dorothy and Rae separately, but their experiences with the Carnival nomination process were similar. In fact, none of our interviewees volunteered for this beauty pageant. Beryl, Dorothy and Rae were all nominated by men. I asked Beryl about how she got involved with the Carnival Queen process.
04:20 Beryl: That鈥檚 another story, I was going with this guy and for his birthday, I gave him a picture. I'm not, my mother took me to a photographer and we had some, she was getting some pictures made anyway. And so, I gave him a picture for his birthday. And his birthday is in June, so I mean, I mean, I thought nothing of it and when, when school resumed, we went, our school started in October.
[04:57] Uh, 平特五不中 always started in October in those days. Um, his roommate, again, there's another thing, I never went with a guy who had a car, who had his own place, or who wasn't living with his mother. I mean, you know, that, that, that was- were the times. Anyway, he was rooming with this other guy th- I think he was from Barbados, and they were both rooming together. Well, when this, um, uh, competition started, he [the roommate] took the picture,
[05:30] his roommate did, and, and pres-, uh, entered it without my knowing anything about it. I'm coming to class one day and I see, um, hmm, I see these five, five girls鈥� pictures running these is the girls running for Carnival鈥攏o! No it was a bunch of girls, not only [Bradley: It was 20] 20, 25 or 26 or whatever. And I see m- I said, 鈥済ee that looks like my picture,鈥� but I don't pay attention. I go, I, I keep going. and then I think.
[05:56] And then I think, 鈥渘o, but that is me!鈥� And I go back, so, I, I say [laughs], 鈥渉ow did that picture get there?鈥� And then in the, the 平特五不中 news it's saying these girls are running and what we're doing and we're invited to this Tea, so I go home and I say to my mother, I said, 鈥渃an you imagine? Layton enters me into a Carnival Queen thing. I mean, uh, me.鈥�
06:26 Sheetal: For Rae, the experience was similar 鈥� she has a clear memory of the man who nominated her for the Crown.
06:33 Rae: Who nominated me? [Laughs softly] The person's name, as I remember it, was Paul. He was not a student, he was a photographer, if I remember correctly, 'cause I had to dig deep into my memory bank to, um, to, because I asked myself the same question. Um, I remember him approaching me.
[07:03] And he, uh, he approached me, I would think, at the beginning of my second year at 平特五不中, which would be 1960, as I went in 59. And sometime, maybe around October/November, about this time of year, and he said he would like, you know, he would like to recommend that I run for Carnival Queen, and I said, 鈥渙h, nice!鈥� I was 20 [laughs].
[07:27] I mean, that was, that was very, that was quite a feather in my cap, you know, and I, I was quite, um, what's the word I'm looking for, uh, I was overjoyed. I, I, I accepted it graciously, as graciously as I could.
[07:43] Now, the people who actually were nominated on who ran, I don- I know how I got in there, through this person, Paul, and, but, uh, and I was a student, and, um, it just rolled from there, you know. They would tell us, um, what to do, uh, where to go, which group, where we were being introd-, who, to whom we were being introduced.
[08:13] We went around campus, and to all the different faculties, the Law Faculty, the Me- Medical Faculty. And h- I remember when we went to the Medical Faculty, my two brothers were sitting in the class, because I had two brothers who were medical students at the time. So, um, and you know, you introd鈥� uh, we, but, but by then, the, the girls who were running for C鈥� because it wasn't j- there were five of us, but out of, of, before those five, there were about 20.
[08:52] And, we, it was an open thing, running for Carnival Queen.
08:58 Sheetal: Rae recalls the selection process that took place at the Queen鈥檚 Tea, as it was called. Over tea and snacks, all of the nominees met with an intimidating panel of judges, who narrowed the candidates down to five women, who then became known as the Queen鈥檚 Court.
09:08 Rae: Um, there was a Queen鈥檚 Tea that was held, where they made, uh, the selection of the five, from the 20. And, we met at, uh, Royal Victoria College, on Sherbrooke Street, and, which is now the Music Faculty, I believe. And, um, Muriel Roscoe was the warden of that, of the, um, of the Royal Victoria College, at the time.
[09:46] And Royal Victoria College was the residence for girls who came from out of town.
I did not live at Royal Victoria College, because we couldn't afford it. I came, and so my brothers, we invented a cousin, they found a cousin for me, a fam-, a relative, and, and, because we had to work, you know, do part-time jobs, and to earn some extra money, et cetera.
[10:11] We weren't, we weren't wealthy by any means. I mean, we weren't poor, but we weren't wealthy. So that's, that's the kind of, um鈥攕o we met at Royal Victoria College for the Queen's Tea and five girls were chosen, and I was one of them. Yeah.
10:30 Sheetal: Wow. [Rae: Yeah] Who were the judges?
10:33 Rae: Muriel Roscoe was one of them, and I believe, the students who鈥� because I've, you know, when it's happening to you, you're not necessarily analyzing what's going on in the background, [laughs] okay. So, but I think there were students who were on these committees, like the Carnival Committee, the Winter Carnival Committee, uh, choosing the girls, uh, organizing the voting, because it, it was done by vote, um, of the whole campus.
[11:06] Everybody was involved. Um, so, so those were the people who were in the background, the administration of it, that's, which is something I didn't, I wasn't noticing it, or wasn't observant. I was too busy being pushed along from here to there, so, yeah. So, who were the people, yeah.
11:29 Sheetal: I suppose I was wondering more whether they were, were they faculty? Or were they鈥�
11:33 Rae: No, I think it was students. The students ran different committees, different societies on campus. And as I was jogging my memory and looking back in the yearbooks, because I have the yearbooks, do you have them in physical form? They're heavy things [Sheetal laughs]. I have two here, and my legs, uh, I, I rested them on my legs and, uh, I could get a fracture from them. They're huge.
[12:01] So, there were different, uh, groups, and committees, and societies on campus. And I think it was, it was a way of also getting students to, to run the, the, these societies, to understand how they're put together, and, uh, so I think those people were in the background. The blood drive, the, uh, the, um, the Flying Carpet, the Red and White Review, all those, um, it's students who were at the back.
[12:35] 平特五不中, I suppose, funded it. They were, they had, you know, they had funds from 平特五不中 to do it, but, um, the students did it, yeah.
12:46 Sheetal: As Rae points out, it was students who organized the carnival events. Beryl recalls that students also led the campaigns to rally support for the Queen candidates.
12:58 Beryl: It's so funny when I, when this, um, uh, competition stuff was going on, I had two Jewish guys who were in the same economics class as me and they kept saying to me, 鈥測ou need to come in late, you know, and not go all the way back. You need to come in late and walk right up to the front.鈥�
13:17 Bradley: Make a commotion!
13:18 Beryl: I said I'm not doing that! 鈥淵es, you gotta promote yourself, you gotta do that [laughs]鈥� And so鈥攂ecause I used to just kind of always be on time and just get in and sit in my seat, you know what I mean. Don't make any waves. But anyway, I did that a couple of times. And the professor called me out and he [one of the Jewish guys] said 鈥淚 told you! Everybody knows who you are now.鈥� [Indistinct]
[13:36] [Laughs] So it kind of worked. And anyway, I did it once. I didn't, I mean, I didn't, that's not my style. So, but I, he, I got into trouble because he mentioned my鈥� 鈥淵ou're late, Miss Beryl Dickinson-Dash!鈥� So, he said, 鈥淒o you see what I said? Everybody knows who you are now.鈥� [Laughs] [indistinct] So, so that's how that went, but I never thought in a million, or, a mill- I never thought that would happen, but it happened.
13:59 Sheetal - Rae too found support from international and Jewish student groups.
14:03 Rae: Um, I know I got the votes of a lot of the international students, the Jewish students, uh stuck with me. I only found鈥� they org- they had a separate organiz- or-organization, um, uh, to, to, to promote me. And I think word of mouth and, uh, you know, talking to each other and, and, and, uh, and that was going on building up to the night at the Forum. So that鈥檚, uh, that was how that, that worked out.
14:38 Sheetal: Both Beryl and Rae described Montreal鈥檚 Black community as 鈥渃lose-knit鈥� and 鈥渟mall.鈥� Rae had definitely heard of Beryl.
14:47Rae: I've never met her, but I, I heard of her. She preceded me, and, but by, by nine years, I think.
14:55 Sheetal: Okay!
14:56 Rae: Yes, yes. When I came, uh, I heard that鈥� and she came from Trinidad as well.
15:04 Rae: I've, I've, I met her mother, and I know her mother, because I worked in the, in the Montreal community, uh, during my days as a social worker in practice, and, and in the, and reaching out to the Black community in particular, and her mother was part of that. [Sheetal: Oh, that's so nice!] So, I've never met Beryl, but I'm, I know, I know, I knew Mrs. Dash, yes.
15:29 Sheetal: In fact, Beryl told us that, um, [Rae coughs] the Black community is, was pretty tight knit because, [Rae: Yes] you know, so few people [Rae: Yes] and, and this is the, this is the case.
15:38 Rae: And I was very much part of it during the years, first鈥� well, as a student, not as a student so much, ju- 鈥榗ause those were my student days. But after, when I was, uh, w-when I was practicing in social work, uh, that's when, you know, we were getting the Black community together, and identifying issues, and trying to deal with them, that sort of thing. Yeah
16:02 Sheetal: Oh, that's really great.
16:04 Rae: Yeah.
16:05 Sheetal: Who, [Rae: And that鈥�] who would have anticipated a connection already?
16:09 Rae: Well, it's a small community [Sheetal: Yeah [laughs]]. Yeah, it鈥檚 a small community [laughs].
16:14 Sheetal: Beryl grew up in Montreal鈥檚 Black community in Saint-Henri. Her father was active in the Railway Porter鈥檚 Union, and her mother was active in many Black community groups. The Queen鈥檚 Tea put Beryl quite far outside of her comfort zone, where she was the only Black student.
16:32 Beryl: Layton enters me into a Carnival Queen thing. I mean, uh, me. We used to say in those days 鈥渃oloured.鈥� The color鈥� 鈥測ou know, I have no chance. I'm not going to鈥�.鈥� My mother said, 鈥測ou paid your fees! we're going down there, we're going to get you a little outfit, and you're going to the Tea.鈥�
[16:50] But I mean, I was nervous. I mean, I was really, really nervous because they were all white and they were all very prejud- not all, but a lot, 鈥榗ause a lot of them were making remarks. And, and it's so funny 'cause I mean, I took the streetcar and we all got there, there's no TV, there's none of that. There is somebody interviewing, um, you, like the radio, with his little mic thing or writing notes.
[17:19] And, uh, and I'm, I, now, [indistinct] remember there was one guy, I think he was from The Star. And he said to me, uh, 鈥測ou're a little nervous.鈥� I said, 鈥渨ell, you know, I, I don't think they're liking me being here.鈥� And he said, 鈥測ou're, you're, you have every right to be here. Now cut that out, now you just hold your head up and walk.鈥�
[17:43] So anyway, they, they interviewed, they cut it down because there were about 26 of us to start, and then they cut us down to about 11. Well, the 11, they, um, interviewed us really h-harshly, you know, and, and, more in depth, I should say.
[18:00] And so, um, then they said, 鈥渨ell, you know, you know what you're here for, and we have to call, we have to call the numbers for the five of you.鈥� Well, you know, my, I had a hyphenated name, Dickinson-Dash, and so I was up there too in the alphabetical order. So they said, um, 鈥淏eryl Dickinson-Dash!鈥�
[18:30] I thought, 鈥渘o, it couldn鈥檛 be.鈥� They called me, they c- and then they called these other four girls, and they said, 鈥渢he five of you now will be running for the Carnival Queen. Well, I mean, I mean, I, I, I was ecstatic, and I remember I didn't even wait to go home, that was the first time I ever phoned my mother on an outside line, I called my mother.
[18:55] I said, 鈥渕other can you believe this? I am going to, I, I鈥檓 going to probably be one of the ladies in waiting鈥� never thinking I'm going to win anything. Nothing like that, nothing!
19:07 Sheetal: The process for all three of our guests was the same. After nominations and selection at the Queen鈥檚 Tea, the 平特五不中 student newspaper published photos of the five members of the Queen鈥檚 Court. After that, the campaigning started. The student body had the chance to vote for their Carnival Queen. Like Beryl and Rae, Dorothy Alexander 鈥� Dusty 鈥� was nominated by one of her peers. She swept the podium with a record voter turnout in 1951.
19:37 Dorothy: It wasn't my idea at all! Um, I was in, then, as I say, in the Engineering Faculty, and they got their鈥� and of course, I knew a lot of people studying Engineering, all men. Um, and I have to admit, one of them鈥攁nd it, and it may have been John Jonas, or among them鈥攗h, said,
[20:07] 鈥渓ook at the size of the engineering, uh, school! We could easily get our Carnival Queen in, because we'll all vote for her鈥� [Laughs]. And so, not that I'm ugly, [laughs] but I'm afraid the year of 51, the other girls didn't have much of a chance, and I, I have read, just recently, since I've known you, and kn-knew that, um, I was going to talk to you,
[20:40] there was more voting that year. More, more people came out to vote, and they were all engineers [laughs].
20:50 Sheetal: So, you stacked the votes, as engineers.
20:54Dorothy: I will dare say that the whole engineering school that voted, voted for me because that gave them some, uh, je ne sais quoi [laughs]. Engineering is, some鈥攚ell, well, those boys were all there to become engineers, and some of them became very good ones.
21:52 Sheetal: Just like her classmates, Dorothy鈥檚 campus life was busy. She knew from day one that she was going to be an architect. She found support from her classmates, but she also had local connections. She moved to Montreal from the South Shore to study at 平特五不中, so friends and family were not that far away. In contrast, Rae came to 平特五不中 as an international student, following in the footsteps of her two older brothers. For both women, the experience of the pageant was a change of pace from their busy lives on campus. Rae, in particular, was active in student groups.
22:29 Rae: I was involved with the West Indian Society. We had a West Indian group.
Um, we, I was involved with the, the Flying Carpet, which was a multinational, um, show that was put on. You know, the Chinese group, it would be an African group, it would be a Caribbean group, it would be, um, you know, uh, an Indian group. Uh, so, uh, and I actually, I think I was president of one, 1959, I was president of the Flying Carpet.
[23:09] There was the Red and White Review as well, and I was trying to remember the name of the one that I was involved in, and for the life of me I can't remember it, and I couldn't find it, um, in, in the yearbook. But, uh, so, the Choral Society, I sang in the Choral Society, uh, the Red and White Review, the Flying Carpet, the West Indian Society, uh, those were the ones, and that was enough, I could tell you. That was enough.
[23:52] I was, uh, [laughs softly] I was very busy, and it did impact negatively on my studies [laughs softly]. I was fortunate to graduate. You know, as I look back鈥攁nd I have a granddaughter who is at 平特五不中 right now鈥攁nd I look back and think, the amount, the number of activities I was in, and the, um, and I worked part time, I, you know, I did babysitting, I did, uh, I worked for Bell.
[24:23] It was called Bell Telephone at the time. Because I had French as one of my, my, um, the languages I studied, I was able in those days to land a job, part-time job, evening work, at Bell. So I'd do 4 hours and go back to my studies. So, I was, I was stretched pretty thin. And, um, it impacted negatively on my, I barely made, I barely graduated. I was a much better student second time round, 'cause I did go back to 平特五不中 many years later.
24:55 Sheetal: And that was for your social work.
24:57 Rae: That was for the, for my master's. Had a lot of difficulty getting in because it came back to haunt me. My marks weren't good enough and social work was, uh, they would, they had just introduced the master鈥檚, the BSW and, and the MSW. And, there were lots of people who were applying to, because it was a, in the old days, like nursing.
[25:23] You know, it was a, it was a nice profession to, to, to enter, to be. So, I, um, but I did get in. I persevered, took extra courses, brought my marks up, and, and got in and got my masters. But I was a much better student second time around because there was no playing around, I had a family by then [Sheetal: Mm-hmm]. And a mor- and a mortgage, as I like to tell people.
25:51 Sheetal: Like Rae, Dorothy was busy as an undergraduate too. She was a part of a Greek women鈥檚 fraternity
26:00Dorothy: Uh, well, [clears throat] I was in Kappa Alpha Theta, which was on that street that runs down the side of the university. You know, it's like a big block of property, and the first street that happens鈥擨 don't happen to remember its name鈥攗h, was where the fraternity houses were located.
[26:26] And I don't know if the other women鈥檚 fraternities called themselves fraternities or sororities, but our, uh, Kappa Alpha Theta was a fraternity. We were all brothers.
26:41Sheetal: Wow.
26:43Dorothy: It, it was a social gathering place, you know. We had meetings, we had things that, uh, we were concerned about. Uh, I don't remember one of them [laughs], but, uh, we, we tried to do some good, progressive things [notification sound]. It wasn鈥檛 just, sort of, balls and, uh, dances, and.
27:14 Sheetal: How many of you were in it? How many of you were in this, uh, fraternity?
27:18 Dorothy: Oh, in the 20s. 20 odd.
27:24 Sheetal: And were you close with each other?
27:28 Dorothy: We certainly all knew each other. We were in, of course, we were studying different things. I was the only architect, um, which impressed everybody [laughs] [sighs].
27:44 Sheetal: It's still impressive. There are still very few women in engineering and architecture.
27:51 Dorothy: Well, I think in the States there were probably more women. But it's, in Canada, it was, uh, definitely not, uh, such a good idea, because we also had to work in the summer and polish our, whatever we could, main- namely the drawing. But we had, we had to get experience in architect鈥檚 office
[28:22] And the first o-office that I went to just said, 鈥渨e don鈥檛 hire women!鈥� [laughs] And, uh, I ended up, uh, working for Canadian Car and Foundry, in the drafting room. And I was drawing aeroplane wings [laughs]. And, so, it was a, a while before I got into a, a real architect's office.
[28:53] I, I, then the next year, uh鈥攏o, I, I worked for Bechtel, um, uh, doing drawings. Uh, they are a large engineering firm, they certainly still, still exist, and they are, I would believe, inter- international.
[29:16] Well, I only had to work for them for two years, [noise], and they were very nice to me. Now, that's the differen鈥擨 mean, they ed-, they helped educate me, uh, in drawing. And, uh and I became a, a nice, a good draftsman.
[29:42] We also had, in the summer, one year we had a survey school. That means you go out with the transit, and, uh, learn how to, uh, lay out land. So, we were kept pretty busy. And the people in my architectural class and my professors were鈥擨 was just one of the boys [laughs].
30:16Sheetal: Did you feel like they, they鈥攚hen you say you were one of the boys, uh, were you the only woman there?
30:24 Dorothy: Yes, in my class.
30: 26 Sheetal: Yeah.
30:27 Dorothy: Um, but the class was only 12 or 13.
30:32 Sheetal: Okay.
30:33 Dorothy: It was very small. And it w鈥攊t had its own little Victorian building, so it was like working in a converted house. It was all the early, the early years. I guess they have a big architectural school building now.
30:52 Sheetal: The architecture school now has a beautiful new building, but other things about 平特五不中 have not changed at all. Men still outnumber women in the STEAM streams. But campus groups are still crucial ways for students to connect with one another. This is particularly true for international students like Rae. She arrived as a 平特五不中 undergraduate from Trinidad at age 20. The following year she was crowned queen of a Winter Carnival. She had never even experienced winter before she came to Montreal.
31:26 Rae: No, no. I had never experienced winter. I, I always tell the story of鈥攐kay, we in the Caribbean, our education, we learned about winter, we learned about spring, whereas in the Caribbean we have literally two seasons: the rainy season and the dry season.
[31:51] Uh, so now, uh, you know, but our education taught us about鈥攊s it Woods, what鈥檚 the, uh, who talked about the, the sea of golden daffodils? And I remembered as a 12/13-year-old, trying to imagine what a daffodil looked like, a sea of golden daffodil. Well, we had bougainvillea and, uh, not daffodils, but we didn't learn about, well, we lived with bougainvillea, we learned about daffodils.
[32:21] So, uh, the Canadian winter, again, it would have been an academic exercise, something you learned from a book. Um, something you imagined. Uh, and I remember my very first winter. I was walking along with a couple friends, a couple friends I had made, uh, we took the same classes, and it was about November and, you know how the season changes, and you can feel, you can feel snow in the air.
[32:54] And I remember we were walking along just outside the Milton Gates, going up the hill, and, um, she suddenly tapped me on my shoulders and she, and she pointed her finger up in the sky, and I said, 鈥渙h, snow!鈥� [laughs] And that was my first experience of snow, ice falling from the sky, [laughs] you know. That was, uh, so, I'd had no exper-, I, I didn't know how, well, you learn how to dress, people have coats.
[33:24] My brothers saw to it that I had the right attire and, um, uh, but you know, I, you know, getting the winter boots and the, the, the gloves and the mitts and the whole 9 yards.
Yeah, so that, I had no experience of winter, except from a book, or may- maybe even a movie.
And we, you know, I'm, we're going back a very long time for me, uh, even movies.
34:44 Sheetal: The Carnival Queen was crowned every year at a gala. In the early years of the pageant, this gala was held on ice at the Montreal Forum, the famous home of the Montreal Canadiens Hockey club. The gala drew in celebrities and university VIPs like Cyril James, the principal of 平特五不中. While there are photos, news clippings and memorabilia in the 平特五不中 archives, these women remember what it was like to be on ice at that moment. Beryl recalls the role that Camillien Houde, the mayor of Montreal at the time, played in the ceremony.
35:26 Beryl: You know, it was at the Forum in Montreal and of course it was on ice so they had built this, um, big sleigh thing, you know, they I was on top and the four girls like that [gesturing around her]. And so, um, they, they, it was at the, um, Forum?
35:48 Bradley: I think so. About 8000 people there?
35:50 Beryl: Well, what, yeah, where, where they skate now, where they do all that, it was the Forum. Yeah, it must have been the Forum, right there on, um, Atwater. Anyway, they went, put the place in darkness before we were coming out and of course it took a while. Well, what had happened: Mayor Houde [Camillien Houde], who was a very heavy man, was going to crown me and they had built these step鈥擨 was up and the girls were on either side, and so they had built these steps for him.
[36:25] He stepped on the first two and broke them! So they [wheezes] had, they had to try to fix it because people are out there waiting for me to come out. Well, I didn't come out, we didn't come out for a while. And my mother, my poor mother, she said, I was, she said, 鈥淚 thought they鈥檙e trying to take away my daughter [laughs softly] and trying to kidnap her or do something with her, it鈥檚 taking so long to鈥�.鈥� She was so nervous that they took so- we didn't come out for so long [laughs].
[36:45] But that鈥檚 what happened with the, with the, with the sleigh thing. That, it was funny because, I mean, he was a big man, you remember a picture of Mayor Houde [asking Bradley]?
37:00 Bradley: [Indistinct]
37:01 Sheetal: I've never seen what the mayor looked like at that time. I鈥檒l need鈥擨'll look it up!
[Bradley and Beryl鈥檚 voices indistinct]
37:05 Beryl: Yeah, yeah, look it up, he's, he's, he鈥檚 really, really a big man.
37:09 Bradley: And then the Prime Minister was there.
37:10 Beryl: I saw the prime minister,
37:12 Sheetal: Wow
37:13 Beryl: Yeah, he, he鈥檚 ni- he was a very nice man, yeah. Yeah, I have pictures in, in my scrapbook, they're all in there, all, uh, all those pictures. Oh yeah, it's a time of my life, but listen, [claps] so long ago! [Laughs]
37:29 Sheetal: Dorothy too recalls Mayor Houde at the coronation. She was on the ice for her entrance, in a float, with the other members of the Queen鈥檚 Court. She remembers impressions of the Forum, full of friends, fraternity sisters, engineering students, and family 鈥� along with the funny slip-ups that occur at every major event.
37:49 Dorothy: I dare say they were there. It was very hard, with, looking at Mayor Houde [laughs]. And, uh, and the girls were on, you know, the corners. I saw, I saw the backs of their heads, and, and one of them was, uh, was behind me. Um, yes, it was a, a very exciting time,
[38:20] but not the kind of exciting night that you remember the details of, just, just the, uh, lit- funny little things that happened. And one thing was I k- I kept hearing someone calling my voice, and my cousin, who had come all the way over from Saint-Lambert鈥攈e was my older cousin鈥攖o s- to say hi [Sheetal: Hmm] and to watch.
[38:51] Uh, at that point, we were鈥擨 think there was a hockey game, and then we were walking on the mountain in the dark, and just generally being paraded around. Well, how far my memory [both laugh] goes back on the subject of the 平特五不中 Winter Carnival 1951, I wouldn't be too sure [laughs]. I mean, I do remember it, but not the, I don't remember the crown being put on my head, but it was all so crazy.
39:28 Sheetal: So it makes me think that they did something different every year?
39:33 Dorothy: Yes, well, th-this, uh, float was pulled across the ice, and, uh, that was not a good idea [laughs]. Uh, there were men in tux-, uh, 平特五不中 men in tuxedos, pushing this float, which tipped, and everybody was laughing. And, uh, a very interesting thing is behind me, beside, there was a woman behind me, uh [it] was mayor Camillien Houde.
[40:10] Have you ever heard of him? Yeah, he was the biggest rascal [laughs]. Suitably, I'm sure. Suited and seated [laughs]. And, and he was having the time of his life [laughs] and laughing and saying things to the audience. I guess that was a, an opportunity for him to, uh, get some prime time [laughs].
40:46 Sheetal: According to Dorothy, Camillien Houde, the mayor of Montreal, was a burly Frenchman, with a permanent smile on his face. He was mayor of Montreal four separate times between 1928 and 1954. There was also, according to many, a great deal of corruption during that time. Montreal鈥檚 finances were in terrible shape. In 1939, Houde became notorious, openly opposing conscription, with a public statement published in the Montreal Gazette. This earned him a 4-year term in an internment camp at Petawawa and put an end to his term as mayor. Despite this, he was back in office, and gladhanding all around by 1951, when he crowned Dorothy Queen at the Montreal Forum.
41:37 Dorothy: Well, there was corruption, but he was a, a very burly Frenchman, always with a smile on his face. He, uh, he enjoyed himself [indistinct]. In the first place, he was in power for years and years. Years and years!He was a young man, started鈥攈e was a, quite an old man, uh, the last time I saw him, in 1951. So, I don't know whether that's legal in Montreal or where they have term limits now.
42:30 Sheetal: Rae describes the process of shopping for her dress and her winning night.
42:36Rae: That was, that was all organized for us. What I remember is we, we were told where to- we had to go to get the dresses. It was on Park Avenue, Lower Park Avenue, going towards, between Sherbrooke Street and what's the next one? Milton and above.
[43:00] Uh, there were lots of stores, fur shops, uh, that sold furs, that sold dresses, uh, that, and we, I remember going to one of those to get the dresses. Uh, and you'll see the dresses are all the same, they're designed the same, so it was the same, it was the same store that provided the dresses, and they were rented. They were not bought, 鈥榗ause we had to return them.
[43:27] Um, uh, the fur stole, 'cause I have, I just saw myself in a fur stole, and um, that was, that was loaned, on loan, and uh, and we had to return those, yeah.
43:42Sheetal: Actually, that's really wonderful, so that, you know, that the, the store had a program set up with 平特五不中 so that you didn't have to [Rae: That's right, that's right] pay out of pocket.
44:00 Rae: I don't think I would have been able to afford the dress. I, I would have had to choose between the dress and a winter coat.
44:07 Sheetal: Yeah
44:08 Rae: And I know what, what I would have chosen.
44:11 Sheetal:[Laughs] Yeah.
44:12 Rae: Practical, yeah.
[44:16] The night of the Carniv- of the, of the crowning was a very interesting experience.
We got our dresses, we were told where we had to be, I think I took a taxi.
I didn't have the same support system that the local girls had. The other four all had their families here, and that makes, uh鈥攜ou know, things like the clothes you wear, how you dress, um, you know, jewelry from your aunt or your sister, your family, I didn't have that.
[44:50] But you know, one or two of the students were really very kind and loaned me stuff. And, um, so we, we were told we had to go鈥攊t was done at the Forum, the c-crowning was done at the Forum.
[45:07] And, we got there, and we were shepherded to the area where the hockey players went. It's, it's a basement area of the, of the Forum, and we sat, we sat, um, you know, all dickied up, and our dresses, and, and prettied up. And, there was a game going on, and then a show going on.
[45:35] So, you know, this went on for like a couple hours almost, and we were at the back. We鈥攁gain, how it was organized, I remember we were, they designed something that looked like an igloo. It opened out with four flaps, like this way, and that way, and that way, and there was a seat in the middle.
[46:05] And just, we, we sat and we chatted. We were very cordial, we were very nice, and, um, I, [laughs softly] I learned a lot about how to be, how to compete and be nice at the same time [laughs] when you don't really feel that way, but I learned that. So, we sat and talked, and the t- we were told what time we would have to, to go out on the ice.
[46:39] And just before we went out onto- it was time to go out on the ice, we were told who, who the winner was. So, the five of us are in this room, and we each went and sat into our igloo, and then they closed it. It's like a leaf, you know, where you t-, it, uh, they closed it, and we were pushed onto the ice and positioned.
[47:11] And while we sat there, leading up to it, you know, the ceremonies and, I don't know, which group did what and won which prize, and all that sort of thing leading up to it, and ours was the last, the crowning of the Queen was the last, um, uh, event, the last on that, um, agenda. And I know that a lot of the Caribbean students and other people came to the Forum that night.
[47:47] Of my two brothers, one could not attend [laughs] because he was so scared. Because what was, what I was doing, what was, what I was entering, and what was happening was not something that normally happened in Montreal, in those days. And my oldest brother, he couldn't come, and he didn't come.
[48:12] And I know all the students, the Black students, the overseas students, they, um, they, they, all, the, the Forum was, was full, and I didn't realize how full the Forum was until we opened the igloo. So, they started with the runner up number five. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, yeah. Runner up number five, and then, you know, big applause. Four, big applause. Three, big applause.
[48:41] Two, the place exploded, because there was just one person left, and, that was it. And I was crowned by the Principal and Vice- and Vice-Chancellor of the university, Cyril James. Um, and I remember going back home that night鈥擨, t-the applause just seemed to, to go on for an eternity [laughs].
[49:10] That's, I, I was 22 years old. Can't really believe I was ever 22 [laughs]. My granddaughter is 20. Yeah, uh, it was, it went on forever. And I think, after Beryl, I broke a barrier, I, you know, um, that night. But what, what was interesting was that it was by campus-wide vote.
[49:40] Um, so that's, uh, that was how that, that worked out. And then of course we got presents, and jewelry. I still have a mother-of-pearl something bracelet and [noise] necklace, I still have it, you know. Um, and, but then I was gone, for ten years, and that鈥檚 basically the story.
50:10 Sheetal: The legacy of the Carnival at 平特五不中 is much more than the tangible objects and records that survive in our archives 鈥� the programs, pins, photos, and news clippings. Each year, a cohort of talented women were in the running for the crown. The student body rallied around them in a show of school spirit that we rarely see today.
50:33 But what happened after the fun and festivities were over? Stay tuned for further episodes, where we hear from each interviewee about their experiences after the pageant and their studies at 平特五不中.
51:03 Sheetal: As always, look to our show notes for additional material, such as timelines, photos, links to archival materials, and more. Many thanks to today鈥檚 royal guests Beryl Rapier, Dorothy Alexander and Rae Rambally. Beryl is featured in another episode on Black History, please check it out on our website.
Thank you to Professor Nathalie Cooke, Director of this project at 平特五不中 Library鈥檚 ROAAr team and to Jacquelyn Sundberg, Associate Producer. Our title song 鈥淗appy Sandbox鈥漺as composed by Mativve and sourced from freesound.org. All composers are listed in our show notes. I鈥檓 Sheetal Lodhia, thanks for listening!
Episode 16 - Life After Coronation - Beryl Rapier 1949
馃攰 听
So what happened after the fun and festivities of 平特五不中's winter Carnival were over? We hear from Beryl Rapier, Carnival queen in 1949, about her experiences after the pageant and her time at 平特五不中.
Explore More:
Hear more from Beryl in .
Listen to CBC's The Doc Project by Julia Lipscombe, .
Credits
Host & Editor: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Producer: Sheetal Lodhia
Transcription & Research: Labiba Faiza
Guests:
Beryl Rapier
Bradley Rapier
Music
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org,
End credits: Happy-music, by monkeyman355,
Transcript
00:08 Sheetal: Welcome to鈥� Footnotes鈥� The ROAAr podcast where we explore the stories in and around the 平特五不中鈥疞ibrary and Archives.鈥� Nothing is off topic.听听
We share stories from our collections, that are off the wall, out of the box,鈥痮ff鈥痶he shelves,鈥痜rom鈥痷s to you, wherever you get your podcasts. We have short pods like this one, called footnotes, and longer pieces, called Voices from the Footnotes.鈥疞ook for these on the website.听
[00:36] Before we begin, we acknowledge that 平特五不中 is situated on the traditional territory of the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst nations. We鈥痳ecognize鈥痑nd respect鈥痶he Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka as the traditional custodians of the lands and waters on which we meet today.听
00:56 Jacquelyn: I'm Jacquelyn Sundberg, associate producer for the podcast and today's host. We're catching up with Beryl Dickinson-Dash, now Rapier, who won Mcgill's Winter Carnival Queen pageant in 1949 as an undergraduate student. She was the first Black woman to win a pageant of the kind at the time. You can hear about her experiences in previous episodes. Today we're hearing about her experiences after she won and where she went after her time at 平特五不中. You'll also hear from Beryl鈥檚 son Bradley Rapier and our producer Sheetal Lodhia in this episode as well.听
01:34 Sheetal: When you won the Carnival Queen, did it allow you to travel to other cities in Canada?听
01:42 Beryl: Not really, no. I mean, I, I had gone to Toronto but, um, no, I didn't. I, well, I, I used to go鈥攎y father worked on the trains. I went a couple times on the, I loved鈥攚ent to Vancouver couple times. You know, it was different.听
01:58 Beryl: You didn't go and stay with people, like, people, you know, they didn't do those things, And my parents were from the West Indies, so their culture, you know, they kept their culture. You just didn't do that. Then this, you come home for your own- sit in your own house and have your own meal. You don't just go hanging out, you know, that, that was what it was and they, they kept to that for quite a while. So, you know, life is quite different now.听
02:26 Beryl: Uh, uh, uh, I, I'm sure you know [laughs].听
02:30 Sheetal: [Laughs] Yeah.听
02:30 Jacquelyn: So, you did though get to travel. You went on this trip down to West Virginia after the Carnival Queen.听
02:38 Beryl: It was鈥攏o not by 平特五不中, it was sponsored by the American folks. They鈥擨 stayed with the Dean and his family. And they, they鈥攁nd I took a girlfriend with me, my friend Bella. And, uh, we were at his house and I went to the convocation. I was a guest there. And they had a couple teas for me, and it was very neat. It was n鈥攁ll those people were very, they were all Blacks Americans, you know, thought it was such a great thing.听
03:10 Beryl: So they, yeah, they did more, they did more there than Canada. Oh yeah, Canada, it's over. I mean, I know at one time this, it's over already. I mean, when I was going through my mail, they wanted it over, it was taking too long [laughs], you know. It happened, and of course, 平特五不中 got tired of it afterwards because they said, 鈥渨ell, you know, come on now, we had the contest, it鈥檚, it's over now.鈥� And they kept, 'cause they kept calling me to pick up this mail.听
[03:41] 'Cause this, America took it up because, you know, it was big news for them, a-and for us as well. So yeah, it went on and went on and went on with the mail and I got mail from everywhere. I got from soldiers, from overseas, from everybody. So it, it, it, it really mushroomed, but it was really a surprise to me. I mean, no, I never thought for a minute. In the first place I would never done it.听听
[04:11] I mean, but that's how it went, yeah. And, and, and like I said, America, true to form, the university, um, invited me to a convocation. Yeah, different people called me afterwards and wrote their own articles, you know, 'cause it was, well, it was a time, you know, when it was, it was history, definitely, you know.听
04:35 Sheetal: What was the strangest request that you got?听
04:38 Beryl: Oh, I got proposed to, I mean, with people I don't even know, I mean, [laughs] a guy from Britain used to write me regularly. And I think he wanted me to marry him, and I didn't even know, I mean, he only knew me from seeing the picture, that's ridiculous.听
04:55 Bradley: What I loved about those, those, they were so, um, they were so pleasant. The letters, they were like, Dear Beryl, If you would be, do me so kind as to allow me to meet you and...It was just so, um, [Beryl laughs] it was beautiful, like, these, you know, obviously [..] so civil, what鈥檚 the word I鈥檓 looking for, cultured, I don鈥檛 know the word.听
[05:15] But just, uh, definitely not like now, you know [laughs].听
05:18 Beryl: No, not like that.听
05:19 Sheetal: No! No sliding into the DMS with, you know [laughs].听
05:22 Beryl: Yeah, yeah that's right. Everything in my life I find was a great experience. I mean, I charted it down [laughs] as an experience, you know. And then as I said, I went to Scotland soon after I got married, so, um, spent seven years there. So, I've, I've lived in a lot of places, yeah.听
05:45 Jacquelyn: So tell me about moving to Scotland, did you fly?听
05:50 Beryl: No, no, no.听
05:51 Sheetal: By boat.听
05:53 Beryl: Boat, took a week.听
05:54 Sheetal: And, and I bet [in] Scotland there were even fewer Black people there than in Montreal.听
06:00 Beryl: Yeah, but you know, uh, yeah, very few, yeah. Um, but I found when they got to know in your little neighborhood, they were pretty friendly. I mean, sometimes they, some of them were [indistinct] I couldn't understand them but, um, and then I went to work there. Um, I worked for some accountants, um, I was the only Black again. And they never, they never had anybody in there like me.听
[06:31] I mean, that was an experience, but the guy who鈥攁gain, I got, I went to- for this job because my husband鈥檚 books were costing so much money, I said, 鈥渨e have no m-, we have, we, I got to get a, get a job.鈥� So I went to this British Rubber Company, it was called, and they were hiring and when I got there, the guy was so rude. He said, 鈥渙h, you have to take an exam!鈥澨�
[06:58] I said, 鈥淥kay!鈥� And so, when I went in, they, they were already doing the exam, and he gives me this- these papers, and I'm doing, and it was math, and math was my subject. I thought, 鈥渙h, I fooled you.鈥� And he came and got my paper first. I was there late, and he came and got my [paper] first. Anyway, he left and went outside to make a phone call and it turned out, when they took me up to this big office,听
[07:26] and I'll never forget this guy, Alec Robertson, and he said to me, 鈥渄o you think they're prejudice here?鈥� Oh I said, 鈥淚 don't know, but I don't, I don't think that personnel guy [laughs] likes me, that's for sure.鈥� So he said, 鈥渨ell, I want you to know he just called me to tell me I have a girl here, she aced the exam, you know, but she's colored, you know. And I said, then what color is she, pink?鈥澨�
[07:48] And so he, he was, my mentor [indistinct]. He would say to me, 鈥渋f anybody makes you feel uncomfortable, you just let me know.鈥� And, and it was, it was hard in the beginning. I know a lot didn鈥檛 like me there 'cause I was the only Black person there, with like a hundred, you know, all kind of accountants, all kind of people working there. And I did a lot of math work, which I loved, but, um, yeah, no, they didn't see many, no, many. But they're, they're, they're, um, you know, the British or, or I should say England, more England, it's really more proper than Scotland.听
[08:27] Scotland has a lot of their own traditions, but when you go to, when you go to England, I mean, really very proper, you know; the afternoon tea and this and that, and you dress for every occasion, and all that kind of stuff. But it was, it was fine, it was fine. [Clears throat] I mean, uh, it, it was hard living in Scotland, they were still in ration books when I went there in 1950, they still had ration books, yeah, till 19鈥斺�檆ause I said to one guy, 鈥淚 thought you guys won the war,鈥� he said, 鈥渙h, [laughs] yeah, but we still have ration books, yeah.鈥澨�
[09:03] They had ration books in 1953, yeah. But, but that was another experience. It was, uh, I was there for seven years. I only travelled by boat.听
09:14 Jacquelyn: When Beryl was nine years old, she sailed to Trinidad with her younger brother, who was seven at the time. They went to visit their grandparents.听
09:23 Beryl: When we were coming back, 'cause 1939, the beginning of the war. And, oh, my brother and I, well, he was scared. I mean, I was a little, but I had to be a little big sister. We slept with our, uh, the life jackets. The portholes were all blacked out because it was beginning of the war. They were, they were bombing the ships, that was in 1939. So, that was really interesting [claps]. Yeah, I lived through [claps] a lot and I'm still [claps] here [laughs].听
09:55 Sheetal: [Laughs] Well, that's why we want to learn from you.听
10:00 Beryl: Yeah.听
10:02 Sheetal: Look to the show notes on our website for additional material and to explore the projects that the ROAAr team has been working on. Our title song called 鈥淗appy Sandbox鈥� was composed by Mativve and sourced from freesound.org. You can find all the credits in our show notes. Thank you to Professor Nathalie Cooke, director of this project at team ROAAr, and to Jacquelyn Sundberg, associate producer. I'm Sheetal Lodhia, thanks for listening.听
听
Episode 17 - Life After Coronation - Dorothy Baxter, 1951
馃攰 听
So what happened after the fun and festivities of 平特五不中's winter carnival were over? We hear from Dorothy Baxter, Carnival queen in 1951, about her experiences after the pageant and her time at 平特五不中.听
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org,
End credits: Happy-music, by monkeyman355,
Transcript
听
00:08 Sheetal: Welcome to Footnotes鈥� The ROAAr podcast where we explore the stories in and around the 平特五不中 Library and Archives. Nothing is off topic.
We share stories from our collections, that are off the wall, out of the box, off the shelves, from us to you, wherever you get your podcasts. We have short pods like this one, called Footnotes, and longer pieces, called Voices from the Footnotes. Look for these on the website.
[00:37] Before we begin, we acknowledge that 平特五不中 is situated on the traditional territory of the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst nations. We recognize and respect the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka as the traditional custodians of the lands and waters on which we meet today."
00:56 Jacquelyn: I'm Jacquelyn Sundberg, host for today's episode. Today we're catching up with Dorothy Alexander, 1951 平特五不中 Carnival Queen, who won the pageant when she was an undergraduate architecture student here at 平特五不中. You can hear about her experiences in the pageant in a previous episode, but today we hear about where she went after her studies and her time in the winter throne.
[01:19] She was known as Dusty Baxter during her time here, and she traveled internationally after she met her husband here in Montreal. Her professional archives are now at the University of Virginia, which is in fact how we got in touch with her. In the records there, the name Dusty is noted in the biographical description. I'll let her explain that nickname.
01:40 Dorothy: Well, my parents both died young. And, uh, and after my mother, uh, left this world, um, I was given a dog [laughs], a Cocker Spaniel. Her name was Dusty. And then, when I was [audio glitches] aunt in Lethbridge, Alberta, now deceased.
[02:08] Um, I took Dusty with me. But then I came back east again, to be with another family member, and, uh, I couldn't take her. So, I kept the name Dusty probably until, uh, somewhere in the thir鈥攚hen I was thirty,
[02:31] because I didn't like it that, u-upper class women all had dreadful 鈥淢imi,鈥� 鈥淏aba,鈥� 鈥淏ooboo鈥� n-names, you know. And I don't put Dusty in with that, but I did not, I wanted to use my, my given name as a, a working person.
02:58 Jacquelyn: you mentioned you went to Okinawa? How long did you live there?
03:04 Dorothy: Not quite a year. Uh, my husband worked for a still extant and very powerful firm called Skidmore, Owings and Merrill. All the principles are dead now, but it was such a, you know, they had such a grasp on power that [laughs] they chose not to change the name. So, Skidmore, Owings and Merrill was working for the military,
[03:37] uh, building a part of the military o-operation in Okinawa. And, uh, it's the only time I ever had a maid [laughs]. We had, uh, an, an Okinawan girl assigned to come to our house every day and sweep it [laughs].
04:03 Jacquelyn: [Laughs] That must have been an experience. Also, you went straight from your 平特五不中 undergrad to Japan, at a fairly interesting time of鈥�
04:12 Dorothy: Yes, it was, it was. I, I think it was partly pulling me away, but I assumed I'd get right in there into an architect's office and it wouldn't make any difference, because it didn't make any difference. Um, but yes, I was married in Japan. Uh, and, uh, then we went right off to our
[04:44] little, kind of, cabin for- which they had for, uh, people who were working s- in Skidmore, Owings [and Merrill]. Any family got a, got a little cabin. And my husband went to work every day and I learned how to drive a car [noise], went to the beach, you know. O-Okinawa would make a very鈥攊t's still in, there's still a US imprint, a big one.
[05:14] And the Okinawans themselves, uh, comment about it, that they've been occupied by some foreign power, since forever, but they have their own government too. When we got back from Okinawa, I worked every single year of my marriage. Then I got divorced, and after that I've been working all my life, as an architect first.
[05:46] I, when I was married, later, and I practiced in, um, San Francisco, both in my鈥擨 had my little one-person office, first, it was in the, kind of, garage, under the, it was a, a room underneath the carport because we were on a hill.
[06:12] And then I found an office. Uh, an unbelievable, sm- small office, big enough to put my drafting table and, and my drawers of drawings, which we were doing there. Um, well, it鈥攂oth in doing my own work, once I got going, I, got going in the, in, at, on the West Coast, and there they are much more open, in California.
[06:44] And, uh, it, it was pretty well, like, like a single architect tends to get, um, uh, eccentric clients. But I also worked for a builder, and he was just interested in that I should squash his buildings onto鈥攖here's lot of hilly country out there, in San Francisco鈥攖hat I, uh, 鈥渏ust one less pier, one less concrete pier鈥� [laughs] to save money, but those were fun. They didn't have a client.
[07:23] But I had one client who was, well, I had two old millionaire clients. One of them was crazy as a coot, and the other one said to me, 鈥淚 hired you because I knew you worked for Bill Wurster, who was one of the prime architects and also Dean of the Faculty [audio glitches] of Architecture at, uh, the University of California.
[07:56] Um, and he said, 鈥淚 knew you鈥檙e [audio glitches] well trained鈥� I did so many schemes for his, it was a c-complete house. It wasn't a remodel. I think, uh, I think I must have done 7 layouts [indistinct]. And now I'm, of course, pretty old, uh, and the, it's easier鈥擨 have a, a photography agency.
[08:27] I do, um, a lot of photography which I would call, uh, is obs- people who have character [laughs], not famous, necessarily. But I did also photograph a lot of famous people because I worked for what's called the Academy of American Poets, which is in New- in New York.
[08:57] I worked for the Municipal Art Society, uh 鈥� all on freelance basis 鈥� and also for the, uh, Academy of Arts and Letters, which has, it鈥檚 like the French Academy, onIy it's the American Academy. And I, I met and photographed, uh, many, many people. I was also known as a very good architect [laughs].
[09:27] People wanted to hire me. I moved eventually to New York, but there, I really had my own firm, and I had, uh, clients who were, uh鈥攚ell, that's all in my biography, which you can find.
09:50 Sheetal: Look to the show notes on our website for additional material and to explore the projects that the ROAAr team has been working on.
Our title song called 鈥淗appy Sandbox鈥� was composed by Mativve and sourced from freesound.org. You can find all the credits in our show notes.
Thank you to Professor Nathalie Cooke, director of this project at team ROAAr and to Jacquelyn Sundberg, associate producer. I鈥檓 Sheetal Lodhia, thanks for listening.
听
Episode 18 - Before and After Coronation 鈥� Rae Rambally
馃攰 听
So what happened after the fun and festivities of 平特五不中's winter carnival were over? We hear from Rae Rambally, Carnival queen in 1958, about her experiences both before and after her time at 平特五不中.
Rae Tucker in coronation gown, 1958. 平特五不中 Yearbook. 平特五不中 Archives.
Explore More
Credits
Host & Editor: Jacquelyn Sundberg
Producer: Sheetal Lodhia
Transcription & Research: Labiba Faiza
Guests
Rae Rambally
Music
Title song: Happy Sandbox, by Mativve, sourced from Freesound.org,
End credits: Happy-music, by monkeyman355,
Transcript
00:08 Sheetal: Welcome to鈥疐ootnotes 鈥� The ROAAr podcast where we explore the stories in and around the 平特五不中鈥疞ibrary and Archives. Nothing is off topic.听听
We share stories from our collections, that are off the wall, out of the box,鈥痮ff鈥痶he shelves,鈥痜rom鈥痷s to you, wherever you get your podcasts. We have short pods like this one, called Footnotes, and longer pieces, called Voices from the Footnotes.鈥� Look for these on the website.听
[00:36] Before we begin, we acknowledge that 平特五不中 is situated on the traditional territory of the Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka, a place which has long served as a site of meeting and exchange amongst nations. We鈥痳ecognize鈥痑nd respect鈥痶he Kanien鈥檏eh脿:ka as the traditional custodians of the lands and waters on which we meet today.听
00:56 Jacquelyn: I'm Jacquelyn Sundberg, associate producer for the podcast and today's host. We hear more today from Rae Tucker, now Rae Rambally, who won Mcgill's Winter Carnival Queen pageant in 1951 as an undergraduate student. You can hear about her memories of the pageant in our previous episode Carnival Queens. Today we're hearing about her experiences after she won and where she went after her time at 平特五不中. You'll also hear from our producer Sheetal Lodhia in this episode as well.听
01:26 Rae: I grew up in Trinidad, I arrived at 平特五不中 at the age of 20, [Sheetal: Okay] so I am, I, you know, like I, I feel Trinidad in my bones, and I've gone back every year or every other year since, so, since, you know, I became an adult and graduated and, yeah.听
[01:45] Looking back, I, when I came to 平特五不中, because I had two brothers who had preceded me 鈥� one by about three years and one by two years 鈥� uh, they had been sem-, they were semi-established by the time I arrived, so they set me up.听
[02:05] I knew I had to go find myself accommodation, a room somewhere in, in the ghetto area, what they call the ghetto, or, I don't know if they still call it the ghetto. Um, I lived on Sainte-Famille, uh, in a rooming house, I had a nice landlady, so I, I walked to my classes. But the group, my brothers belonged to a group of students, Caribbean students, from Jamaica, from Barbados, from听听
[02:35] Trinidad. And we gathered together, there were parties, endless parties. You didn't have to have money, uh, not even liquor, coke, and, and, and maybe some cheap wine, uh, if, you know, some cheap wine and, and music. And they rented an apartment at 3602 Durocher Street, which became听听
[03:05] famous because that's where all the parties were. And the nurses came and the, the, the, the, the other students heard about it and they came, and the police came too.听听But the police鈥� oh yes, [laughs] every so often, because it was really, very noisy, they were all good kids because they were all, all attending classes during the daytime, but, and all away from their families, and it was one way of surviving, just being with each other.听
[03:35] So, I came into this group and joined this group. I didn't live at that address, I lived up on Sainte-Famille, but, uh, I had my lunch at the, at the house. We got together at Christmas time. Parents sent out- sent up care packages for their children, uh, we learned, uh, I watched鈥� those who knew a little bit about cooking, they, they bought a turkey, uh, they cooked a听听
[04:05] turkey, they learned stuffing, that's where I learned to do stuffing, and, and it was Jamaican stuffing that I learned, and I come from Trinidad [laughs]. So that was the kind of atmosphere. For the Caribbean students 鈥� and I suppose for other students from other countries as well, because there were a lot of international students 鈥� at Christmas time, the CBC invited us down to its offices, to, to send听
[04:35] greetings to our families. So, and we each had about, oh, I would say less than two minutes, to, to say hello to your aunt, your uncle, your mother, your father, your cousin Henry, everybody. And, and you say, you know, we're having, we're, we're, we're, we're enjoying our studies, we're studying, we're doing quite, we're studying very hard, you know, we would [laughs]. And at Christmas time, because I was also, I'm, in Trinidad, when my brothers were here,听
[05:05] before I came to Canada, when, you know, you sat and, and waited for this, um, the broadcast to come over and you know you heard your name on the radio, that was a really big deal. So, so that was, that was, the CBC was involved in that way to help us send greetings at Christmas time. And, and that's how we, we kept our spirits up. Summertime, we found work.听
[05:35] I got work with Bell, which paid very well, even in those days, and for a student. We had no loans, uh, I mean, 平特五不中 gave grants and loans, bursaries, but it wasn't much. Couldn't do, couldn't do much with it, so we learned how to, how to survive. And we didn't get loans from the government, that's for sure, because we weren't eligible for it. Um, where should we go from here? 鈥淲hat did you do after graduation?鈥澨�
[06:05] I got married at, at Divinity Hall just up the street and we left for England. So, I spent ten years in England. Um, my children were born in England. I taught school in England, in, in the South, in London. So, you know, I, I, I was part of that system for 10 years and, uh, I, I did, uh, an external diploma at the London Sch- at the, at London University, in Social Work,听
[06:35] because we got married in such a hurry that having graduated with a bachelor's degree, I was going to do a master's in Social Work, and they didn't have the bachelor鈥檚, they, they later brought in the bachelor鈥檚. I was g- it was a degree and the next was the master's, and I, I just left and went to England, got听听
[07:05] married and went to England, so, a-and came back, as I said, 11 years, 12 years later. So, I came back, I got an, I did the- my master鈥檚, my, I brought up the f- m-my children, we, they grew up, and I was restless. I didn't feel fulfilled in, in the work, well, not the work I was doing, it's, it's the structure I was functioning in. I, th- I think it was more that. The nurses, uh, you听听
[07:35] hear it from the nurses, they're tired, and it's the conditions and that sort of thing. It was, it was along that level. I've always been an ambitious person, but you know, we ran into the, the subtle racism, you know, something just isn't happening, and you wonder why. You start asking yourself why after a while. But I was very involved with the Black social workers in Montreal while I lived here, before I went to Barbados.听
[08:05] Um, we called it the ABHSW, which was the Association of Black, um, Black Social Workers, and, um, we got involved with 平特五不中 School of Social work, um, we were involved with, um, the foster parent programs that they had. Uh, we, we questioned why so many children from the Caribbean, in particular, ended up in foster care.听听
[08:35] Um, still happening with the disadvantaged groups, but, um, these, this was, as a result of, of people not having a support system that helped them. And it was easier to take the children into foster care than it was to support the families, to keep the children.听 Um, and I think this still is happening today. I don't know if s-, if it has changed within the Caribbean community,听听
[09:05] and of course, people have problems with their children, you know, um, and, and it's what they do, how they survive, how they see it through with their children. Um, I applied, I started looking outside of Montreal and I ended up in the Caribbean. And, again, that was quite an accident. So, I did a full circle from the听听
[09:35] Caribbean, to M鈥攖o Canada, to England, back to Canada, then to the Caribbean, and then back, back to Canada, where I am right now, talking to you. Um, I taught social work at the University of the West Indies, Cave Hill campus, in Barbados. I trained the social workers, um, because they were evolving, social work as a profession was, was evolving there. Everybody was doing social work. The policemen did it,听听
[10:05] the firemen did it when there was a fire, the priest did it when, [laughs] everybody was doing a, a, they did a bit of social work, and I remember cringing after going through two years of hardcore studies at 平特五不中. So, I, I was visiting Barbados and I thought let me just have a look.听
And I called up the university, and I didn't know how they were structured, I asked if there was, who was head of the听听
[10:35] social work faculty, uh, there was no faculty. Uh, there was one person that鈥攖hey were just starting up a social work department and I, I thought, I, I persuaded the, the person who was in charge to meet with me because I was leaving to return to Canada I think in two or three days' time, and he saw me. He met with me, and I told him what I did in Can-, in Montreal, and he gave me a, an application form, just in case. And I got on the plane, and we came back. And, I think I sat on it for a while, and I think it was the day before the due date that I 鈥� I didn't have a fax machine 鈥� I went to my brother's office and asked him to fax, fax it for me.听
听In the meantime, I continued working, and I really put it at the back of my mind. And one day, I,听听
[11:35] I was working at a CLSC here in Montreal, and, um, I was, I came home, I was making supper, and the phone rang, and my husband answered it, and he said 鈥淩ae, it's for you. It's the university.鈥� And I thought, oh, they're calling to tell me no. And I got to the phone, and I was told 鈥渨e'd like to offer you the job.鈥� And that changed my life for听听
[12:05] eight, ten years, because I, I had to think very carefully because I had a family, and a very strong family. I couldn't just walk out like that. I had to get permission from everybody, and my children were, they had gone through university and everything, my daughter was extremely, [crying] she was extremely supportive, and at 53, I went back to the Caribbean, where I spent eight years at the, at Cave Hill campus, uh,听听
[12:35] and retired, and came, and decided that was it. So, since then, I鈥檝e been involved in bringing up grandchildren, and I lost my husband about, I have to get this in, about five years ago, after almost 60 years of marriage [Sheetal: Oh]. It was a long marriage, and a very good marriage,听听
[13:05] and we produced two children, and I have three grand- lovely grandchildren, and my friends, and, you know, I belonged to a Caribbean group, and we all are retired, and we go to lunch, and, uh, uh, and all those people came to Montreal or to Canada around the same time that I did. So, they're all people in their 80s. We talk and we have a good time, you know. And they have, you know, I think of the problems I'm seeing happening in Montreal, it's not that we didn't have problems, but it was a smaller society.听听
[13:35] It was, I would not say a less political society. Because in those days, there were two programs: you came as a student, or you came as a domestic. But, you know, the students and the domestics, uh, we, we, we integrated very well, and we got al-, uh, because those who came as domestics didn't get in, didn't qualify to get into the program, but they were very ambitious people.听听
[14:05] I know one person who became head of banking in the firm she worked for. It was a French/English problem there, and we, we were brought in, they gave us the opportunity to come to university if we qualified for it, if we could afford it, um, and that's how, that's how we got here. We weren鈥檛 into the politics of it. I think we were too concerned about whether we would be able to stay.听听
[14:35] Immigration, immigration issues rather than, uh, rather than politics. If you were lucky enough to be granted, um, landed immigrant status, that was the, um, but those people, of, there, there鈥檚 a, there鈥檚 a solid group of Caribbean older people. I don't know. At, at my age, I can hardly climb the stairs now. I'm grateful that I still have my memory, because that's part of, that's a big part of our problem these days.听
15:05 Jacquelyn: Rae鈥檚 memory is sharp as a tack. It was a joy to hear about her experiences. An enormous thank you to Rae Rambally for sharing her story with us.听
15:18 Sheetal: Look to the show notes on our website for additional material and to explore the projects that the ROAAr team has been working on. Our title song called 鈥淗appy Sandbox鈥� was composed by Mativve and sourced from freesound.org you can find all the credits in our show notes.听
[15:50] Thank you to鈥疨rofessor Nathalie Cooke, Director of this project at 平特五不中鈥疞ibrary鈥檚鈥� ROAAr team鈥痑nd to Jacquelyn Sundberg, Associate Producer.鈥疘鈥檓 Sheetal Lodhia. Thanks for listening!鈥��
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