I guess the first part of the interview, we would like to know about how you decided to become an architect.
Actually, I started off thinking I was going to be an engineer. In high school, I was really good at math and couldn鈥檛 speak English very well. I don鈥� t know if I can any better now, but-. And so I entered school doing the first year of engineering. And then I remember basically, I always used to like to draw and doodle, and I remember there was a guy in my English class saying to me, 鈥淲hy are you going into engineering? All you do is doodle? Why don鈥檛 you become an architect?鈥� And I thought, you know, that sounds really much more interesting to me. And I remember my parents really- you know, my parents always wanted me to become a doctor. And they always counseled me. They were worried about what the profession of architecture was like. They said, you know, 鈥淚t鈥檚 a tough profession. Don鈥檛 do it鈥�. And being young and arrogant, I thought, well, I鈥檒l be successful and I really didn鈥檛 think much at all about the sort of- you know, what the profession was like and how difficult it might be.
[1:18:18]
Where was all this growing up? Was this Montreal?
This is Montreal, yeah. I grew up in Montreal. We immigrated to Canada when I was about four years old and so grew up in Montreal. And really that explains- I mean, my parents were immigrants and I really never thought about going to any other school other than a university in Montreal. It wasn鈥檛 in the cards financially. And it wasn鈥檛 also in the kind of psyche as it is now. You know, I have children and they go to college. And when we were thinking about college, we were looking all over the United States, 鈥榗ause everybody-. And both kids did move away from home for college but in our case, it really wasn鈥檛 sort of in the cards. And so 平特五不中 was the best university anyway in Montreal and, you know, as far as I鈥檓 concerned, probably the best university in the country, in Canada. So if I could go there, I went there.
[2:14:09]
What year did you enter 平特五不中 in the school?
I entered 平特五不中 in 1964 and then graduated in 1970. And our year was an interesting year in the sense that after us, everybody got a Master鈥檚 and a Bachelor鈥檚 [sic. B.Sc. Arch and B.Arch]. And prior to us, everybody got just a Bachelor of Architecture. In our year, they gave two Bachelors鈥�, a Bachelor of Science and a Bachelor of Architecture, which is kind of irritating to us, especially at this time. I mean I have a friend, a classmate of mine who is now the campus architect at Yale University. I don鈥檛 know if you鈥檙e meeting with him. It鈥檚 Arch Currie.
I know the name, yeah.
For somebody like that, working in the university system, it makes a big difference to him whether or not he has a Master鈥檚 or a Bachelor鈥檚. So he鈥檚- I鈥� ve spoken to him and he鈥檚 kind of very irritated about that particularly. But anyway, so that鈥檚- I graduated in 1970.
[3:08:23]
So in 鈥�64 you entered. Tell us a little bit about some of the professors, not necessarily in chronological order but any of the professors that might have influenced you, that you enjoyed.
Yeah, I had a- there鈥檚 nobody sort of- well, that鈥檚 not true. Norbert Schoenauer was a really positive influence. I mean he was a fabulous professor. He really was a kind of a humanist. He really knew how to deal with students and sort of, I think, get the best out of students. I particularly remember having problems with Stuart Wilson at the time.
I thought you鈥檇 mention Stuart!
Well, I remember, you know, I was a young student. I did well in high school. I did well in the first year. All engineering subjects I used to do pretty well. And so my first- there was a summer course that you had to do prior to entering the architecture school. And I decided to do it on Buckminster Fuller鈥檚 Geodesic Dome. I think at the time he- no- yeah, at the time, he was doing something for Expo.
[4:21:29]
Yeah, he was doing, that鈥檚 right, something for Expo. He was doing the American pavilion.
Pavilion, right. And I had- I think I had worked for John B. Parkin in Montreal. It was my first summer job and I think it was- I can鈥檛 recall if it was the year after first year or after second year. It was very close. A friend of mine, a close friend of mine was working for Moshe Safdie and he still is Moshe Safdie鈥檚 partner.
Franco?
Franco. Isaac.
Isaac Franco, yeah. I interviewed him.
And Isaac, and because of Isaac working for an architect, I decided, well, I was going to try and get a job no matter what. And so I went to Parkin because they were the biggest firm at the time in Montreal and actually did get a job, sort of offered my services. I couldn鈥檛 get past the secretary, but then I decided I was going to offer my services for nothing. I realized, you know, I wasn鈥檛 worth anything to anybody. So just an internship. So she took pity on me and got me to meet, I think his name was MacMillan.
[5:23:08]
Yeah, Hugh. Was it Hugh MacMillan?
Hugh MacMillan, a wonderful guy. And he interviewed me and decided to give me a job and said, 鈥淲ell, we鈥檒l pay you鈥�. So it was really smashing because from then on in, it was, you know, it was easy for me to get jobs in architecture. But I think they were doing some work at Expo and I got some access to this Buckminster Fuller stuff. And I worked my- I mean I really worked hard. I did these wonderful acetate overlay drawings and stuff. Looking back, I mean I have been a guest critic at a bunch of universities. I mean, you know, the thing I produced was really kind of nice. But I think Stuart Wilson thought it was way too ambitious and cocky as it were, and I think I got like thirty-one percent or something. It was just like abysmal. I was really pissed off.
[6:21:06]
Yeah, he made people feel that way from time to time.
And he thought it was presumptuous, I鈥檓 sure. And so he told me to write on what I was doing for the summer. And at that time, I was working for my father, who was the manager of a meat market, NDG meat market. So I鈥檇 been working in the butcher shop so I wrote about beef. And he passed me for that. I mean and Stuart, Stuart Wilson in my experience when I was in third-year architecture school, I always had a problem with Stuart. I mean I had- even doing architecture. I was fairly frenetic. I was always changing designs. I mean, I was a young architect, you know, really grasping for stuff. And somebody like Isaac, who was a much more mature person as an architect than I was as a young man, he would just sort of take a design and really develop it and his work was very mature as a young man. I was always trying all kinds of stuff. And Stuart really- I also had this attitude that he really was determined that I should not be an architect. And I was a very arrogant person when I was younger, you know, self-confident. And I thought nobody is going to tell me that I鈥檓 not going to be an architect. So it really didn鈥檛 have much of an impact on me.
[7:39:17]
Strangely enough, the next year, I had John Schreiber. Schreiber? Yeah, that鈥� s his name. And he also, I had sort of problems with during 平特五不中. I鈥檒l never forget- God, you know it鈥檚 funny, thinking about these things in the context of a professor with a student, because as I said, I do lots of guest crits and work with a lot of people in our office and I鈥檓 at the other end. And I鈥檓 very conscious, I think as a result of the kinds of things that I was exposed to as a student, the crits that I had, how I interact with younger people. And I remember sort of- I can鈥檛 recall specifically, I remember, the thing that I remember about John Schreiber was telling me that I could never have two walls that intersected at ninety degrees and went through each other because you couldn鈥檛 frame it that way. That鈥檚 what kind of- I mean, that鈥檚 the momentous thing that I remember about the guy. And I remember also there was a really nice guy, Vecsei鈥�
Oh yeah.
鈥� who was a guest critic. And he would sort of be on my side, sort of saying, 鈥淵ou know, John, give this kid a break鈥�.
Andre Vecsei.
Andre Vecsei, yeah. Nice, nice, man.
His wife is an architect as he is, Eva Vecsei.
Yeah, we worked together. When I graduated, I worked for Dimakopoulos for a while and she was there with- at the time. I think she was there.
Yeah, she was because that was at Arcop鈥檚, Affleck, Desbarats鈥檚 office, eh?
Right.
And she worked there for a long time.
And then, I mean, the great contrast between Schreiber and then in fifth year, I had Norbert Schoenauer. So you know that whole progression of professors. And you know, Schoenauer was a beacon. I mean he was a wonderful humanist. I mean he was a terrific guy. You know, he鈥檚 the guy who sort of spun my plate as it were a little bit more and I managed to sort of go-. And I did very well with Schoenauer. In fact, I won a scholarship to go study at Fontainebleau. There were two scholarships given for Canadians. I represented 平特五不中 and there was another chap from University of Manitoba. It was like the penultimate year, like the Pilkington thing. And I think this was the first year they did it. And I represented 平特五不中 and got this scholarship to go there, which was wonderful. So I mean, you know, my record at 平特五不中 was kind of like a sine wave. And then the third year- yeah, the final year was Radoslav Zuk. And most of the year, obviously, was devoted to the thesis and I did that in concert with Isaac Franco and a guy by the name of Victor Bengozi. Isaac and Victor are still good friends and I see them all the time and we travel together. And so, you know, that was kind of uneventful, the whole thesis project. It was pretty good and I don鈥檛 have any lasting memories of it.
[10:38:15]
Do you remember Professor Collins? Peter Collins?
Oh yeah. Peter Collins was a wonderful man. And I loved Peter鈥檚 course. And probably Peter鈥檚 course is probably the most memorable course and it鈥檚 had the most lasting effect in terms of how one sees buildings. And I even have, you know, tried to look up some of his stuff afterwards, his book. In fact, I was looking for- I remember when I was in school, he did go to Yale to do a course on jurisprudence and stuff. I have a son who鈥檚 at Stanford Law School right now and is very conversant with architecture because of, you know, growing up with me and traveling and looking at architecture through an architect鈥檚 eyes. And I was telling him about Peter, that Peter had done a law course and the relationship of jurisprudence to architecture. Never could find the book and it鈥� s-
[11:33:06]
Well, if you鈥檙e interested, I can try and find out where you can get a copy, if you want.
Yeah.
Because I know a number of people that I鈥檝e talked to are aware- have talked about this book. In fact, I talked to one person who went from I guess Wyoming to 平特五不中 and took his Master鈥檚 degree and he worked with Peter Collins on a particular- I don鈥檛 know what- it was a historical thesis that he was working on. But he worked with Peter and he spent his whole period that you are talking now, he spent his whole time speaking about Peter Collins. Interesting. But I know where there are copies of the book so I鈥檒l get back to you.
Okay. And the thing that I remember also that was fabulous about Peter was his exams, the two slides with no questions. I mean I loved those, even though I couldn鈥檛 write! I mean my skills in writing have developed as a result of professional life and having to- I do a lot of marketing, marketing in the sense of interviews for jobs and you know a lot of writing. And so you- those are very, very important skills as an architect, which you obviously can鈥檛 learn in architecture school. Really, you probably should have learned that, writing, in high school.
[12:43:29]
Except when you look back, with hindsight it鈥檚 20/20, but there was never really an awful lot of time to do these things or the interest wasn鈥檛 there. There was always other things competing with that.
Right.
But I can also remember the slides. A lot of people talk about that, Peter Collins鈥檚 slide show or slide examination. You were supposed to write as much as you could, just keep writing until the next slide was apparent.
Right.
And I can remember in my case, in one exam, I think, they used to hand out these little copies, these little books that you write in. And I must have filled about two or three books. And I got a tremendous mark. And one particular individual got a very low mark, and Peter Collins called him in and he said, 鈥淲ell, here鈥檚 what the high mark wrote and here鈥檚 what you wrote鈥� . So I guess- and that fellow ended up being somebody, by the way, that you might want to connect with. He鈥檚 the VP of design construction of Federated Stores. You know the-?
Oh really?
Yeah, we talked at length about that. Anyhow, was- I guess I鈥檓 trying to think. Was Gordon Webber there when you were there or had he died?
No, he had died, so he wasn鈥檛 there. And there was Gordon Spence. But I don鈥檛 recall- I think he wasn鈥檛 teaching or he had died.
Oh, Harold Spence.
Harold Spence.
Harold Spence-Sales. That鈥檚 right.
Yeah, Harold Spence-Sales.
He taught Town Planning. He鈥檚 still alive but just. Because I talked to him a few years ago out in Vancouver. And of course, Maureen Anderson was always there.
Yes.
Everybody鈥檚 big sister. And did John Bland at all teach you Canadian History?
Yeah, he did and, gosh, I was just thinking. And I remember Derek-
Drummond.
Drummond did our first year design, a minimal shelter. And I remember the design to this day was a fabulous- my little minimal shelter were these two- in plan it was like two semi-circles offset and with a sloped roof. But it鈥檚 funny because it鈥檚 a form that鈥檚 now kind of- you sort of see that in buildings these days and in fact, it鈥檚 on a building that I鈥檓 doing now. It鈥檚 something that I鈥� m using and I keep thinking about that little project. And I thought that was a- you know, it was in a little sketchbook. It was wonderful because it was the first project we did. We really didn鈥檛 know of what constraints were and it allowed you to really to kind of think freely. It鈥檚 interesting, I mean, the more or more you did in architecture school, the more or more you had these kinds of constraints imposed upon you.
[15:09:27]
Exactly.
And so you kind of tended to do certain things in a certain way. And, you know, schools like, I don鈥檛 know if you know about SCI-Arc. I was just at the AIA convention in Monterey this weekend and Thom Mayne of Morphosis was talking. And it鈥檚 interesting how people evolve as a result of their schooling. I mean clearly, you know, his work is much more frenetic and freestyle and stuff. That kind of stuff I don鈥檛 think could have- I mean it could have come after school but not as a result of sort of 平特五不中.
[15:43:18]
How about, maybe you could make a couple of final comments about- do you remember Sketching School at all?
Yeah, Sketching School, Sketching School for me was an interesting thing. I鈥檓 a fairly decent sketcher, not great. But I remember a couple of things. You know, I鈥檇 luck out and I鈥檇 get these really nice sketches. And I think now as you鈥檙e older and you develop a certain style, you know, personally, I know I can do sketches in a certain medium and not every medium. So I鈥檝e kind of developed that and I鈥檝e actually taken classes. But I remember because Isaac and I were friends. And Isaac is a fabulous painter and he had painted since he鈥檚 been a kid. And we would go to this venue, you know, this landscape and we鈥檇 sit. And he鈥檇 do this thing and I鈥檇 do this thing and I鈥檇 look at his painting and I鈥檇 say, 鈥淲here do you see all those colours, man? I can鈥檛 even see this stuff that you鈥檙e painting. It鈥檚 driving me crazy!鈥� And then, I, of course, had Stuart Wilson for that and Stuart and I were like this [knocks fists together]. And I never- I was just happy to pass Sketching School when I was dealing with Stuart. And it was- so I kind of remember that. And then I remember also now that I鈥檓 thinking of it, Survey School.
Oh yeah.
Survey School, where we鈥檇 do these contours and I would, you know, really precisely draw these contours forever. It was just kind of worthless.
[17:13:16]
It seemed to me also that we used to do a circuit with the- and the whole building would come around and meet at the end. They kept us very busy of course in [unclear] hall in the evenings. Because I guess most of the people would be out on the town drinking or playing around with the ladies and so forth. But in retrospect, all of those things, in spite of the problems at the time, were all fun. You know, when you think back, they were all basically a lot of fun.
So when I graduated 平特五不中, I worked, immediately I worked for John Bland鈥檚 firm on the airport and some other projects for about a year. And then I left to England. I went to England and I worked with Terry Farrell and Nicholas Grimshaw, both of whom are pretty kind of well known now. And the firm was called Farrell Grimshaw. Worked there for about, in between traveling and living in London, for about three years. And after that I ended up going back to Montreal and working for Dimakopoulos. And then I started working with a fellow by the name of Phil Beinhaker, IBI Group, and became a partner. Actually, I wasn鈥檛 a partner then. They decided they were going to start an office in California and so I was selected to come to Southern California to start that practice. And they had done a lot of housing at the time. And we managed- I used to commute. It took about seven months. We managed to get enough work.
[18:39:07]
Was that around, what, 鈥�76?
No that was about- yeah, 鈥�77. So yeah, I graduated 鈥�70, worked in England. About 鈥�77, decided to do this thing. In 鈥�78, had enough work to justify moving. So I moved and started this office, IBI Group, in Southern California, South of LA. And actually became very well known. I mean, in terms of Orange County, I got more design awards than any architect there. I鈥� m sort of fairly well respected in Orange County. Through the housing, managed to get university work. I did a faculty housing project for the University of California Santa Barbara and through that, developed a relationship with the universities and then got to do a bunch of different university work. One of the interesting things was I managed to get a project with James Stirling in England. And he and I did a large science library at Irvine, a twenty-five million-dollar building. And I was the executive architect. And that was a wonderful experience. I mean I became good friends with Michael Wilford, his partner who is now carrying on the practice. And in fact, Jim died. After his last lecture in LA, he came here. The building was just coming out of the ground and he went back to England. He had an operation and died as a result of post-operative complications in the operation. It鈥檚 kind of sad because we had developed a really good relationship and were going after all kinds of work. So did that until about 鈥� 96. So I鈥檇 been running the IBI show-
[20:20:12]
Actually, Phil is one of the principals and founders of the firm.
Oh yeah. And actually as a result of sort of a falling-out between Phil and another partner, I decided to retire from IBI Group in 鈥�96. And then stayed on my own for about a couple of years doing work. I was very busy. And I knew the guy who was the managing partner of Anshen Allen in LA from my days in England. In England I worked with- he鈥檚 an Englishman, we worked together at Nick Grimshaw鈥檚 office.
Yeah, okay.
And we鈥檇 been talking about sort of joining up for some time. And so last year, I decided- they wanted me to come as a partner here. I had actually, as a result of doing library work, I had gotten- and when I was on my own, I teamed up with Anshen Allen and we actually got a fifteen-million-dollar library together for the Santa Monica College and we were going to do that as Anshen Allen / Paul Zajfen. That project, strangely enough, went into hiatus for a while and I鈥檓 now actually doing this project. And so I joined them in November of 鈥�98 as a partner and it鈥檚 a really fabulous office. I鈥檝e gotten a bunch of work subsequent to being here.
[21:45:18]
Is your work, actually, cover a broad-?
Yeah, it鈥檚 mostly institutional work that I do. I mean I totally got out of the housing thing because I didn鈥檛 want to do sort of merchant-built housing. We were doing work for The Irv- and I still have a very good relationship with The Irvine Company and do certain kinds of projects for them. Not really housing. Like I鈥檝e designed a cell tower prototype for these cell phones, this kind of triangle out of Cor-ten steel that鈥檚 going to be built. And most of the work that we do now is kind of university stuff. I just got a high school, which is kindergarten through twelve. A lot of city work: I did a major downtown renovation of a street for the city of Hermosa Beach. We just kind of transformed the whole area. I鈥檓 doing a library for Santa Monica College. The firm does a lot of university work for universities across the country. I鈥檓 now short-listed for a big medical library for the University of Wisconsin in Madison. And that鈥檚-
[22:56:18]
And one of the difficulties, of course, you know that better than I do being a successful architect, is getting the work.
Yeah.
It鈥檚 something you don鈥檛 learn at university and you learn through the school of hard knocks and some people never win at that game.
Exactly.
Too many of them don鈥檛, unfortunately.
Yeah.
Do you have any regrets at all in terms of your career or anything you might-?
No, I mean I鈥檝e been very successful in terms of the role that I can play as a- I mean, I quite like being the person that goes and interviews for work and being responsible for it. I like designing. I鈥檝e been recognized in terms of the work that I do, so I really like that. I鈥檝e been fortunate enough with Phil Beinhaker to make money out of this profession. And we鈥檙e trying to make money out of this office. I think we鈥檙e going to be successful. But you know candidly, when I had kids, I decided- I told them- you know, I realized, you know, this is an office of fifty people. I mean, IBI was an office, well, all over the place, there were two hundred or so. And there were very few partners to people that work there. And I鈥檝e always been fortunate enough to be there. And it鈥檚 a tough road for a young architect. And so I decided that I鈥檇 encourage my kids to do things differently. And my daughter鈥檚-
Like law, for example.
Like law, yeah. And my daughter鈥檚- actually, my daughter鈥檚 doing environmental science so I don鈥檛 know what she鈥檚 going to end up doing.
Well thank you very much.
My pleasure!
[24:23:02]
